Pitch Please

00:01.13
mike_flywheel
What's up everybody. It's Mike we're back here on the pitch please podcast today. We're talking a vessel. We've got Sidney and Alexi here vessel is an automatically adjusting prosthetic for people that are amuteses. It's ah ah. I'm not even to try to describe it. We're going to let them do the pitch I'm not the pitch master here. But welcome to the show Sidney Alexi why don't you start by telling us a little bit about what each of you do at vessel and then let's learn a little bit about each of you.

00:29.35
Sydney Robinson
Yeah, absolutely well. Thank you so much for having us. Um I'm Sydney and I'm Alexi and I'm the Ceo and cofounder of vessel and so my role is really anything business related. So I'm really in charge of the fundraising side of things engaging with our customers and our end users and just try. Get as much feedback as possible about the business and our product as well. So that's really my focus and I'm Ceo and I'm in charge of operations engineering of the product and just ah getting all those details lined up so that we can bring that product to market as soon as possible.

01:05.41
mike_flywheel
All right business and engineering I Love it. Um, tell us a little bit about you know your background because obviously when we talk about this product. It's very specific. So at some point I'm going to want to know how we got here. But maybe tell us a little bit about your background and and life before.

01:14.63
Sydney Robinson
Yeah.

01:23.60
mike_flywheel
Before what got you here at vessel.

01:25.23
Sydney Robinson
Yeah, sounds' great. Do want to lead absolutely so it's really funny the ruless that we have now yeah are actually the flipped roles of based on our education. So I'm a I'm a clinical anatomist by training. So I did. Ah. Medical sciences at the University Of Gulf and then I came to western to do my master's and then in my Phd in the department of anatoy and cell biology. It wasn't super related to what we're doing now but it created the foundations for what we're doing now. So my master's was in clinical anatomy. So I learned all of that. Functional anatomy basics that really helps us understand the core problem really well and then I did my ph d in simulation based training in neuroradiology and so it was a little bit removed but the way that I got to where we are now and how I'm at Sydney is that. Was always very interested in entrepreneurship very interested in business. There were some opportunities that western for me to take some business courses through the ivy school of business and then eventually that led me to do annov medical innovation fellowship at Western University where sydneyd and I had met. So I'll give sydney a chance to talk about her background as well up to the point where we met at the fellowship sounds great and so yeah, as alexi said, kind of funny. My background is in engineering and so I was I did my undergrad and mechanical engineering at Queens University and quickly learned the engines.

02:53.13
Sydney Robinson
Did not turn my crank I didn't find them very interesting at all. Um, so I specialized in biomechanics instead I've always found the human body fascinating and the reason that prosthetics is so interesting to me is because it's augmenting how the human body moves which we have not been able to crack that code yet. But I think that. The work that's being done in prosthetics and related fields is starting to get really close so that was I was always interested in prosthetics I continued on and did my master's in biometical biomedical engineering at Western and then decided to join the fellowship same as alexi was interested in entrepreneurship didn't actually know if it was going to be for me. But once we started working on this problem it I just couldn't get enough. It's a fantastic a very worthwhile cause to work on and a fantastic team that I have so I'm very blessed to be here and very excited.

03:42.25
mike_flywheel
Well I love those learning journeys and I feel suddenly very not smart with both of you on the call. It's like I was like okay I think I'm catching every third word and understanding sort of what those roles do um so what I do want to talk about though because those are.

03:46.52
Sydney Robinson
Like that's like.

03:59.63
mike_flywheel
A very different paths but both of you mentioned something which is like at some point you've sort of always known you might want to do something entrepreneurial and I'm always like genuinely curious. What's. Doked that or what sparked that and when that started did it start when you were in University Sometime Sooner. What sort of like made you when was that decision when you're like yeah you know what I think I actually want to be an entrepreneur I think I want to solve these problems because it it is not for everybody. So I was Curious. What was like the moment or or person or thing that inspired each of you.

04:33.70
Sydney Robinson
Yeah, absolutely I think that for me I was a born someone was saying the other day or you're either a born entrepreneur or you're a reluctant entrepreneur which I thought were funny buckets but I would consider myself a born entrepreneur or more so a born leader I've just. Always really enjoyed working with people I've really enjoyed any leadership role that I've been a part of I did teach swimming lessons when I was younger and had my own little swimming business. So when I was 18 I didn't have my own pool in my own backyard but I would bike to other people's houses who did have a pool and I would teach their children swimming Lessons. So. It's always been something I've been interested in and I wanted to give it a fair shot so that was why I joined the fellowship and I wasn't married to the idea of starting a company. Um, it was something that I thought I should just let happen organically. But. When you find a problem that you really want to solve not necessarily a solution that you're married to but a problem that you think is really worthwhile. That was all it took for me to to know I wanted to keep doing it and and I thought that we could lead the way and growing up for me. I was always the guy that had a ton of different hobbies and I loved taking things apart and understanding how things worked so when I was really young and this is like forever ago I you know started with building pcs so I was building my computers and I was really into tech.

06:02.86
Sydney Robinson
Taking vcrs apart and I've always kind of just like wanted to tinker and learn all the time. So I picked up hobbies and started brewing beer and doing all these things and then started roasting coffee and making my own coffee roaster and then got interested in. Well now they're really popular like electric scooters and things like that. So I built my own electric skateboard and started. Soldering in my living room to make the battery packs for them that were high anchorage so I was just always doing stuff to try to innovate. But my biggest roadblock was that I was doing this on a very unsustainable hobby level where I was just stoking my curiosity and just kind of. Engaging in the directions that my mind was going and it wasn't until I started taking some of these business courses in the upper years of my ph d and then going into the fellowship and meeting people like Sydney where I realized how absolutely fundamental it is to creating a sustainable business to have that. Um, counterpart in in the foundations of the business who can't bring some of those other skills. So a person like Sydney who can bring in the network who can bring in the people with the right skills. So it no longer feels like a solo project where I feel like I have to learn everything and do everything only myself. Which was the roadblock for for me to kind of create things that would really sprout and scale and so I always felt like my life was going in that direction even though I was doing things that were kind of polar opposite on paper which are kind of academia but the the burning fire was always there so I'm really glad that.

07:37.51
Sydney Robinson
Um I made the decisions that kind of lined me up with a person like Sidney who is really just like ah a really great partner to be on this journey with.

07:47.89
mike_flywheel
That's cool. Let's let's talk about that a bit. Maybe what where and how did you both meet and let you know let's hold a little bit of secret around that the pitch and what vessel does but if you could talk a little bit about how you both met what sort of. Started you down this journey of maybe starting to to work on solving a problem together. Clearly you both have skills and background and wanting to you know work on building things innovating things leading people but where where and how did you meet and what sort of started the the relationship and journey towards building out vessel.

08:17.87
Sydney Robinson
Yeah that's an easy one. We met in the medical innovation fellowship at Western University and day one of the boot camp before it really begins I think within the first thirty minutes Alexi and I knew that we really enjoyed working together. We just are. Personalities clicked and then throughout the ten and a half months of the fellowship our skillsets just clicked like anything that I was really good at or really enjoyed doing wasn't necessarily Alexi's priority and vice versa like that the creative big thinking as alexi said, take it apart. Put it back together. Very classic engineering skills. Um, we're not It's just not what I find as rewarding as talking to people and engaging and and asking for feedback. So we just had this natural skill set division which which I think was really helpful and if I can add our. I said our personalities meshed really well and I think both of us are really focused on bettering ourselves as people and that is a foundation as co-founders that you can't orchestrate that like that is. So foundational so core to the way that we approach problems and have big discussions because lo and behold. Ah when you're starting a company and everything's new. You do have some hard decisions you have to make and I think that we've done a really good job of keeping that communication open so I went on a bit of a tangent there but that's that's how we met and then why we enjoy working together.

09:44.53
mike_flywheel
No.

09:49.42
Sydney Robinson
Absolutely And it's I think a big part of that is ah I mean we've developed a lot of skillsets prior to meeting each other that became the foundations of how we communicate with each other and a big part of that is vulnerability and trust with each other and so we are very open about our shortcomings with each other. And that's where the support really comes in where we can fill in the gaps. So That's just kind of to address that that tangental but it's yeah, it's been kind of like right off the bat and to tell kind of my side of the story about when we Met. We had this big group interview to get into the medical innovation fellowship and after the big group interview. Ah, we have to do these little projects in in these subgroups to really make sure that the people that they're going to choose to get into this fellowship really mesh together really well because it's such a big part of.

10:42.35
Sydney Robinson
Being able to work in this sometimes very vague space where a lot of issues come up and you don't have a clear direction where you need to go and so out of that group interview even though I wasn't paired up with Sydney during those subgrouping stages when we were applying when she was presenting. Her group's findings I was like. I like the way that that person thinks she was actually my recommend 1 of my recommendations when they did a questionnaire at the end where I said I think that person should get in because they clearly have the right characteristics of ah of an entrepreneur and so what's really unique about the way that we kind of. Got to the point where we created vessel is that in this fellowship. You essentially get grouped together with scientists engineers and and clinicians those are kind of the trio and it's typically about 6 people they get they get hired for almost a full year you get thrown around in different clinical scenarios. You just essentially observe. Clinical scenarios for about two months advertising the program. A little bit here and and then you start narrowing them down you collect these clinical needs we collected just over two hundred clinical needs from all of these observerships and we've looked at things like.

11:47.84
mike_flywheel
So just what sorry sorry to interrupt just 1 quick so all the needs are like these are all just like problem statements people are just throwing like anything that's a problem up until eventually you start to refine which one might stick and which one your team I guess would like to dress. Okay, okay, sorry continue.

11:52.95
Sydney Robinson
Yes, yeah. Yes, yeah, and so we went through this structured process where we were going through all these needs and looking at what is the team really passionate about what do we have the background to try to solve things that are not too. You know sometimes you would have clinical needs like.

12:05.70
mike_flywheel
And want to make sure I clear that up.

12:18.64
Sydney Robinson
Oh there needs to be better emrs in different clinics. Well like good luck trying to solve that That's a huge problem. Yeah, exactly So we went through this process and so we were we were looking at things like um like in teeth surgeries you were looking at a bunch of different Orho surgeries like spinal realignment devices.

12:21.90
mike_flywheel
We don't need any more yeah emmars.

12:38.63
Sydney Robinson
Ah, some of them. We actually tried iterating on and then they failed or we realized that the market wasn't there so it was very much coming in it from the opposite way that a typical entrepreneur would where they're already sort of embedded in the clinical space that they're in They're very passionate about the problem because it affects them personally and they're iterating. Kind of already within that space versus for us we came at it from a purely scientific point of view first narrowing down and then when it came down to the last about top 10 this prosthetics problem was just at the forefront I just could not believe that this problem existed every person we talked to. I was just like I cannot believe you have to suffer through this like there needs to be a solution and I can clearly see where the where the other companies failed why they weren't able to succeed and so this this was such a a clarity point where you know the program starts in August. And around March Sydney and I were life. Yeah, we got to pursue this. We were already working on it for a couple of months and other problems have kind of died down and we knew at that point you know this is something worth solving and worth dedicating time on and kind of risking income risking you know all these other things that we could be doing to try to make this a reality and I'm really glad that we made a decision to do that? yeah.

14:01.60
mike_flywheel
That's actually a great point I Love the backstory and obviously a very unique one because generally founders are like hey I'm like a serial um entrepreneur I like try different things knowing I want to be an entrepreneur and then I eventually just solve problems until they Stick. Or it's like this frustrated me so much I never thought I'd be an entrepreneur but it literally frustrated me so much and then I couldn't take it anymore and started and in your scenario you were like hey we like solving Problems. We're in a program that gives us. A ton of problems and then we start solving against those problems and then oh Wow, this one. How could this not have been solved yet I need to solve this I like it weird like inbetween. Um, when you think about? Yeah yeah.

14:46.46
Sydney Robinson
Can I can I jump on that mic because it is really interesting like I think it's both an advantage and a disadvantage in a way because we neither of us are amputees so we don't know the lived experience of amputees and we can't speak to that. But we do have this outsider perspective so we can come up with these creative ways of solving the problem and then we just make sure we surround ourselves with amputees and prosthetists who can give us their insights.

15:14.70
mike_flywheel
Yeah I actually love that you dove in on that because I think that's the piece that's interesting, right? You're solving a problem that you inherently aren't the end user of um, there's a couple of things I want to dial back on after but maybe on this one just how have you. Without revealing everything in a vesa like how have you gotten around that challenge. Um, or how have you found breaking through on that because I'm sure there's other people that see um problems or challenges that they wish to solve but they're not. You know, intimately familiar with the problem and I'll give you another example and then I'd love to hear your your story around this but um shub ah he he was from a company called Celeste and it's a device that helps. Um those who are visually impaired and he's not visually impaired.

15:52.57
Sydney Robinson
Sure.

16:07.80
mike_flywheel
But you know he had some some lessons in how he's been going about solving that problem some people that he knows his approach to feedback Loops. So I'd love to kind of hear your lived experience and in how you're augmenting something. That's not ah, a specific problem for you. But how you're making it the best possible thing. By bringing people in in some way shape or form.

16:28.20
Sydney Robinson
Yeah I think that the fellowship was a good starting point for us because and even the design cycle in general the quote I Always like to use that I think is overdone is um I'm going to spend 90% of my time on the problem and 10% of my time on the solution. And so we really did just that We just started asking questions like as you said, we're not Aftte. We don't know so let's find people who do so we just started reaching out to amputees and prosthetists and saying you know what? what does a day in the life look like and how did you get here and what happened and. What are the challenges you're facing What are the things that bring you joy and and you can get a lot of flavor and picture from that and then you can learn how many other people are involved so there are physyatrists who are involved in Healthcare and there's um. Ah, researchers who we needed to ask questions to so you learn how many different people there are who you need to be talking to and that was really we spent a lot of time on and surgeons to do the amputations that lose communication with care years down the road and so there's a separation there that we never knew existed. So It's understanding. The foundations is really important. Yeah.

17:41.78
mike_flywheel
That's cool and do you have people that are part of like a user feedback group that are like a little bit closer to you and the team now to provide Quicker feedback loops is that like a piece of how you guys are building this out.

17:52.82
Sydney Robinson
Yeah, we've got um, we've got a few apute who are I want to say close connections I think it's the right word and we've got a few prosthetists who are close connections and then some researchers as well and some maybe serial entrepreneurs is what you'd say but specifically in the prosthetic space. And so what we're trying to do is we have all these people who we've been chatting with and talking to and now kind of what you're alluding to we want to formalize like ah, a clinical advisory board. So the prosthetists who can give us feedback and then like a user advisory board and the apts who can give us feedback and have a little bit more of a structured relationship that way. But. Being ah a company. That's only been around for a year that's something that we're building up now.

18:33.39
mike_flywheel
That's super cool. Um, and so before I think Alexi I think you mentioned this which was making or taking the leap against some risks you know there's financial risk time risk. Um, what.

18:41.69
Sydney Robinson
Parents stories.

18:49.56
mike_flywheel
There had to be something right? like you are obviously compelled by this problem and you were working on it but that doesn't mean you have to throw you know all the risks aside and be like this is the one I'm going to Solve. There is usually a moment a defining Moment. What was that like defining moment for each of you or maybe it was the same defining moment that you were like Okay, we're doing this and we need to keep going and solve this or you or you haven't stumbled upon it yet.

19:13.35
Sydney Robinson
Well sydneyd and I are sydneyney and I are at slightly different life stages and so our decision making is a little bit different when it was like right at the very beginning so I am a little bit older I'm 33 I slightly ancient just ancient. But but you're know so and you know I have you know I have ah roots here in settled down now here in London ontario I have a wife I have two young kids.

19:33.20
mike_flywheel
I Don't want to tell you my age that.

19:47.77
Sydney Robinson
And so you know I've got a mortgage It's just like all these things that are like really important things to consider and when I was really mulling this over. You know my wife Janna she was like giving me the permission right? because these are discussions that I have to have with her and she's like. Like you're seeing it like you're seeing the vision. You got to jump ahead and try this like I've got your back and that is so important that um, my family is is willing to go on that risky journey with me because they see the purpose and they see the effect that it will have. And as a result actually this is super crazy but she has started her own business as well as she's a die addition by training and she started her own private practice in tuition nutrition that's been blowing up here in London as well and so that has kind of inspired her as well. But just taking that leap is really. Foundational in having the right support and right network around you so having my family support me having Sydney I mean like I tell her probably on a biweekly basis on like if you hadn't jumped on board like this company would be dead in the water in a month because I need I need Sydney skills. We need to balance each other out in that way and so those are were the those were the key factors that really helped me decide that yeah it is weighing in the direction of taking the risk and and making that move. Yeah, it was a little different for me. Um, exactly as you're saying I you know.

21:21.85
Sydney Robinson
Living with my parents and and was like well I might as well try it and no I thought about it more than that. But my I had a discussion with my mom who I look up to quite a bit and a close friend of mine who I also look up to quite a bit and they said you know what's the worst it can happen like you might as well give it a shot. And and this could really be something. You're really passionate about it and if you were going to start the company with anyone. It would have been with alexi so the kind of the the push for me from the universe if you will was. Was that alexi was the one who wanted to start I was like well if it's he who wants to start it then I might as well give it a shot. Um, and in terms of that moment I would say there's certainly been a few but we had 1 conversation and again without getting too much into into what we what we do yet. We had 1 conversation with an apt.

22:15.28
Sydney Robinson
And the number of times he had to attempt to solve the problem that we want to solve throughout 1 given day was astronomical and I just couldn't imagine having to do that myself and how frustrating that would be um and that would have been my only answer. But. Yesterday I had a conversation with a gentleman who's in investing had been for many years and then he had to get a double amputation so below the knee on each leg and from a health condition and he said and he's very active super on top of his health and motivated. And he said I love my prostheses like I love the legs that I use and the only problems I've ever had have been with the socket and I was like okay if you are having issues then then it's clear so there's just been and there's been countless moments like that. But those were the two that really stood out to me. They're really bookmarking arts. Yeah, right? like you really are are bookending. It. Yeah exactly.

23:15.00
mike_flywheel
That's cool I Love that it was you each had your own unique journey and process to decide on on how to jump in and I think there's so many learnings from each of you in terms of like it being the right person and fit to go do this with the conviction around it. The need for buy-in from family and support from from family or those closest to you that will be impacted by this decision. So I'm glad you're You're both here. It sounds like there's a lot of things that continue to come up that inspired you to keep going. So Let's talk about it. Let's talk about the it. Let's talk about Vessel We're on a show called Pitch. Please. So. Ah, you can do it Together. You can do it independently I don't know how you want to do it but your pitch please.

23:58.37
Sydney Robinson
Absolutely I think I'll I'll do the spiel. That's my it's one of my jobs actually um so every 30 seconds a leg is amputated around the world and yet there is still no good solution for what they call poor socket fit so an ampute's leg will actually change size. Throughout the day and in the long term inside of a socket that does not so just like when you wear the wrong size pair of shoes, a poor fitting socket causes blisters and so lots of amputees will just stop using it altogether and that's why we developed what we're coining the isoform socket and it automatically adjusts. As the leg changes size to avoid those high pressures that lead to blisters. So we're reimagining what comfort means for people with leg amputations.

24:41.51
mike_flywheel
I Love it and I'm im like I think we're going to have to do a great job because definitely there's like some visual elements to this and so we're gonna We're gonna do some description through that. But maybe let's just first start on like how you arrived at the name vessel and then I want to learn about like. The industry. The people all that type of stuff but let's let's start with the name. The name's easiest one to probably figure out or maybe it was the hardest. How did you arrive at the name vessel.

25:04.98
Sydney Robinson
This was not I disclaimer this is part of the creativity process that is not my forte so this was all alexi and it's fantastic I like obviously love it. We had. We had a few different ideas for for names. But we had some. Some images of what we wanted it to represent and we talked about it. It had to be a company that represents kind of the the the piece that will become a part of you as an m pee you want it to feel like it's. Like your original leg you want to feel that it's at home you want to feel like you can do all the things that you've always wanted to do and you want to feel like it enables you to be the person. You've always wanted to be and all the things you've always wanted to do. To go see your friends and family to do the activities you once used to do and just to have a great quality of life and so we were thinking about you know we were just looking at the different terms for ah the placeholders for. I remember 1 of our earlier ideas was like there's a special name for the podium that holds up the trophy and so we were looking at things that hold you up and elevate you and we came across a vessel because one of our early design iterations used some fluidics for pressure monitoring and so.

26:31.15
Sydney Robinson
Vessel being something that you typically would put a fluid in and or something that would carry fluids like body vessels but it also has a meaning of which is actually the primary meaning of a vessel that carries you like a ship so it's ah it's a vessel that carries you through your life's Journey. And so that's kind of how we arrived at it and when we started looking at it. We thought this is actually fairly representative of the the benefit that we want to bring to this population. And then to make it confusing for people who want to spell it and also set us apart. We spell it V E S S L So We sound Swedish or something. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

27:11.20
mike_flywheel
I love it and I love the the like thought process but you you boiled it down in like 30 seconds was this like hey one night over cocktails. We came up with this brainstorm and we arrived here or was this like how long did this take because in the reason I ask naming. While it's it seems like it should be simple like it takes a lot of time like it takes as much time as solving the problem for some people I'm being a little.

27:33.23
Sydney Robinson
It It is more frustrating than solving the problem in some ways I'm just like there's I don't know I don't know the frustrating thing with that money? Yeah, yeah, exactly the frustrating thing with that kind of decision is that.

27:44.24
mike_flywheel
Um, because it's your brand right.

27:51.87
Sydney Robinson
Once you make the decision it really sticks and you have to kind of stick by it because that's your image. That's what you're going with versus the iteration of the product design. You can be more fluid with because you're listening to the market you're listening to the people that will use it right? So it's continuously improving so we actually when we were in the fellowship. And we were exploring this and we applied to a small pitch competition. We applied as we had to think of a name quick because we wanted to focus on iterating and not really, we didn't have a company. We weren't incorporated or anything like that. We just needed to name to represent ourselves so we did about ah 20 minutes kind of like sprint structure to think of some names that did anonymous voting with the team and we call ourselves limb brace. So it's called limb brace and then when we started thinking about starting the company. Thank you? Yeah appreciate that. So there are a few issues with Lim Brace one that.

28:36.96
mike_flywheel
For for what it's worth vessels way better.

28:46.43
Sydney Robinson
Limb Brace was a company there was a company I think out of the Philippines or something like that's something overseas that was called limb brace that was coming up in Google searches first and it's also the name of it is kind of it's restrictive people don't associate braces with something that's comfortable in something that really enables you. It's something that's a bit more just structure. Structural or visual depending on the application. So we knew that we had to create a ah brand that people would associate with and people would understand that. Yeah this is this is the brand that I want to align with and this is the brand that will help me get to the place that I want to be but coming. With vessel I don't actually think took us that long it was you know a few days maybe a week total take a week yeah coming up with isoform was a nightmare that took us that took us weeks. Yeah or but like it just was like little points. Yeah I mean we we. I think we do a great job in making sure that we use our time really well. And so yeah, these are the kind of these are the kinds of things where we would like table it and let you know, kind of let it simmer for a little bit. Yeah, but we wanted to make sure that we made the right decision which I think we did with these things we did.

29:54.56
mike_flywheel
That's cool it you know what? it's fine though. It's to your point. It's like there's a permanence to it and it it has you have to be inspired to say it and talk about it every day and so it feels like you you got there now I know.

29:54.69
Sydney Robinson
Yeah, we weren't spending 24 7 working on names we we were building a product. Yeah.

30:11.58
mike_flywheel
Not much if not anything at all about this industry and maybe people that are listening aren't so let's draw them in with some facts some stats understanding the market help me understand this space a little bit and then you know we'll try to talk through what. Ah, product is and how it looks and how it works a little bit more.

30:32.19
Sydney Robinson
Yeah, absolutely so there are 50000000 apt worldwide and within the United States which is the first market that we're starting with and we can talk about why canadian companies starting in the Us. Um, there's 2000000 aputees and. Not you know about 50% of them really are eligible for prosthetic socket. There's a lot of issues around that and around prosthesis use and there's one hundred and eighty five Thousand new amputations every year so this population is not going away. Um and the. Problem is not going away and it's only increasing diabetes is on the up aging populations are on the up all of these things are increasing and with the the war efforts that are going on and and just different things like that. There's always room to be iterating in this space and it's a. Classically underserved population. So and that's to give you a flavor of of the overall market and then just to give you ah an idea of how apts like what are they doing right now about this problem. So their leg will as I said change size. You can think of if you're walking around and your legs swell up if it's really hot. Or you're walking around and there's kind of fluid moving out of your leg a leg will actually exactly or your belts.

31:43.79
mike_flywheel
Like like wearing a watch right? like when you put a watch on.. It's super comfortable or like a ring and then you go outside and it's a little warm or you're working out or you ate like salty foods. It gets tight and uncomfortable I So I'm trying to like imagine that. But. You know for a limb and I guess it's a similar problem where like or like if it's too loose and starts falling off or or you don't feel I guess like stable I guess would be a piece of it is that sort of like the similar thinking.

32:11.60
Sydney Robinson
exactly like that. exactly like that so um a day in the life of the amputee. Let's say they ate ah some pizza the night before because who doesn't love good pizza. Um, and all the sodium that goes into a pizza so they wake up the next morning and their leg is swollen from all the sodium. And from lying down flat a lot of fluid will pool in the bottom of what they call their residuum which is just the leg that had been amputated and so now they're all swollen they get up. They can't even fit their leg into the socket to begin with which is extremely frustrating. So now you get new a wheelchair you make your coffee and. Now some fluid has moved out of your leg and you're up and you're at least moving a little bit so some fluid moves out and and you can now fit it into the prosthesis. Great now you walk around you drive to work but because you're up and moving now and the fluid is moving around your body just like blood moves around your body so do other fluids. Well now your leg has shrunk again. So now you're wiggling around inside of that socket. So go walk in a mall for 2 hours in shoes that are too big and you tell me what your feet look like at the end of that and and ah an aapt's residuum would look the same so they can get blisters and things like that is what I mean and so what you have to do is you take the leg off the prosthetic leg off. And you put on a sock and then you put the leg back on. So if you bought shoes that were too big and you took them off and you just layered some socks on to make your feet artificially bigger that is how amputees are currently solving the problem and they have to be cognitively aware so they have to know.

33:47.14
Sydney Robinson
Okay I should add a sock or I should not add a sock based on where I'm feeling pressure in my leg so they also need to be able to feel the pressure in their leg which some of them can't they have to have the dexterity to make those adjustments they have to have. The foresight to bring socks with them in a purse or a backpacker or something keep them in their car bring them on their walks so you can see how this spiral is out of control and is just an extremely inconvenient way to manage what we call limb volume changes The group sos.

34:14.11
mike_flywheel
Yeah, that solution really sucks.

34:19.92
Sydney Robinson
Yeah, yeah, it does really suck and so the first patient that we that's like a ah joke you would have made yeah really suckcks they really I love yeah they do if we should be got a tagline. we' stealing that will we'll give you credit though. Mike Will'll give you.

34:25.77
mike_flywheel
Yeah, like all other solutions suck that's going to be your tagline.

34:38.90
mike_flywheel
It's all yours all yours.

34:39.53
Sydney Robinson
Ah, thank you? Ah so the first patient that we talked with ah was getting up in the morning putting his socket on he works on his feet at a factory. He would drive to work and by the time that he he wasn't even walking to work. He was driving to work by the time that he got to work. He already had to layer a couple socks onto his leg like take the socket off put them on. Get them on his leg and then go to work and that's just the first you know hour of the day and they're doing this throughout the day if you're wearing pants and you can't access. it's a multitude of problems and it's really um it was really this big point of of just like puzzlement for us when we came across this of why hasn't anyone really seriously iterated in this space knowing that all these people are complaining about it and the problem is that. Many have tried but they have avoided some key points of what makes a business successful in a market like this and some of them have approached it from a pure kind of research perspective and gone from there and avoided the business perspective and so they weren't able to commercialize properly or others have gone. Gone at it from a tech perspective and made something that is overengineered that can hit the market and the margins are there but no one can afford it and so or it's just they don't understand the patience very well that the patients need something that is that you click it and it works. They don't need an app for it. They don't need 20 controls.

36:14.80
Sydney Robinson
Just need something that is preset that works and adjusts and that's the approach that we went at it with we want. We want this to be something that is you know the fundamental pressure points are set by the processes. So they're still intimately involved but when the patient is Using. It is just. You know one button on off a scenario where they where it gets pressurized from their walking patterns when they're walking throughout the day but it's not a bionic system so it doesn't use any microchips. It doesn't use sensors and so because of that it's still very affordable and it's still reimbursable by major public. Ah, insurance plans and so we wanted to make sure that this accomplishes the functional goals and at the same time it can appeal to the Mass Market or people can really get their hands on this and this is ah these are a combination of points that no one has tried to hit altogether.

37:07.77
mike_flywheel
I love it now. 1 quick clarifying question because you know you keep mentioning sort of the leg limb is your product specifically for amputees with a leg limb need or is it for any type of amputee.

37:10.60
Sydney Robinson
Um.

37:21.92
Sydney Robinson
Right now we're focused on Leg Amputees there's just based on the way that our our product works it really relies on that standing and walking motion to redistribute pressure around the leg and to allow for that expansion and contraction. So we are focused on leg aptes right now we're focused on folks with below the knee amputations. There's more of them. Um, so it makes it a good place to start and they feel this problem really acutely because of the your shin bone is like right at the front of your skin. Um, so you can imagine that rubbing inside a plastic bucket would really not feel so good. So. Focusing on them first then moving to above the knee and then pediatric specific as well and then we have all kinds of other ideas for for different products too. But yeah, definitely focused on leg right now.

38:06.29
mike_flywheel
Got it. So maybe ah did did you have something to add to that Alexi. Yeah.

38:08.17
Sydney Robinson
Yeah, so I wanted to also say you know the company itself we have right now a really big 3 hree-stage vision for the company and all these things that Sydney has mentioned It's just the first phase and so we can see really acutely how vertical integration within the space. Can really drive. Um the right kind of care to to people's homes and and onto people's limbs and so we do see a really big vision ahead for the company that goes beyond just that automatic socket.

38:39.63
mike_flywheel
Got it? No I Totally appreciate that and you have to start somewhere one of the earlier podcasts I was recording today. Actually it was just like here's where they'd like to be and you know there's the reality of where you need to start need to start an area that's. Deeply embraced and you get really good at it and then you can expand if you try to solve all the problems at once you'll you'll likely fail or at least struggle in some regard now. Um, one of the things that I love to to try to do I know it'll be maybe challenging so you can use you know for the video edition you can use like some hands and some interpretive dance. But maybe if you can try to describe for anyone. That's just listening um as Well. How vessel actually works and you know how you're solving this this problem.

39:17.42
Sydney Robinson
Just.

39:26.66
Sydney Robinson
So on our legs we have if you think of the circumference of the skin around your around your limb especially below the knee. You'll have parts of the leg that. Um, have parts of the bone that are kind of sitting underneath the skin and then there's more muscular parts if you were going to take all of your weight and put it on the skin. That's actually not made for you to put all of your weight on it. You have to distribute the pressure. As equally as possible along the areas that can take the pressure So those muscular regions and you still want to have surface contact with where some of those bony prominences are however you don't want them taking a lot of the weight because the skin will wear down.. That's where the skin can be a little bit thinner. And you will get blistering and have a lot of issues and so you have to have this really unique balance of those things and so what we have are these panels that are essentially moving in and out and ah the way that they move in and out is based on a pressure point. That is set by the prosthesis which is essentially the maximum amount of pressure that the panels should be applying based on research that's out there onto the skin itself and so that that pressure needs to be redistributed based on how much swelling and shrinking the muscle. The muscles have now the muscles will shrink and swell.

40:57.47
Sydney Robinson
Non-uniformally so some of them have a bit more vascuture. Some of them are a little bit bigger and so the panels need to adjust independently and and apply a little bit of that pressure until a set limit now that energy has to come from somewhere to apply that pressure. And so what we have is we have this module that sits at the bottom of the socket that slowly gathers energy from the steps and this module is using some clever mechanics to gather energy at the heel strike point. So when the person is walking and they're first. Having their heel strike and pressing onto the ground and taking little bits of energy every time that they step but not so much that it's like a cushion step. We don't want them to feel like their steps are are assisted or augmented in any way or like you're stepping on a trampoline like you don't want that feeling. Yeah. You're not stepping on a big spring. It's just very small amounts of energy that are slowly gathering throughout the day and they're accumulating in this panels and the big thing here is like that part is fairly straightforward to do the big part here that is really important to have is to make sure they don't apply too much pressure onto the skin. And so we have these ways of limiting how much they're compressing and how much they're releasing ah based on the size of the limb itself and this is done through mechanics.

42:13.88
mike_flywheel
got it. So got it so if it were like a cup with like you know 10 different sides that make up the circle. Basically you're saying that there's energy that gets created in a mechanical way and that energy gets released where basically different sides of the cup.

42:26.54
Sydney Robinson
The.

42:32.70
mike_flywheel
Can come in a little bit and create that pressure. But as as needed So like it's a little bit modular in that in that way I'm trying to imagine it biggerly a little bit.

42:36.67
Sydney Robinson
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and if you want to imagine it on your leg as well. You can think right now and you can the pros. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly and the prosthetists can choose you know where they want the panels or how big the panels should be and things like that. But you can think of kind of.

42:45.77
mike_flywheel
Um, almost like actuators is almost I'm picturing. Yeah.

42:56.39
Sydney Robinson
2 panels on either side of your shin bone at the front and then one bigger panel at the back at your calf muscle and those are going to move at different rates.

43:05.65
mike_flywheel
Amazing and um, is it for below the knee amputations or above the knee amputations or or either or okay, got it got it.

43:10.34
Sydney Robinson
Below the need for right now and then we'll move above the knee and another important thing to mention as well is that this is not just some off the shelf bucket that is adjusting to your limb these panels and these interfaces that are actually facing the skin are still custom molded. So There's a few different ways that we can go about this through traditional casting and carbon fiber lamination to create the perfect shape and then just have them be cut so that they're adjustable and moving or three D printed at a central fabrication facility so that it's perfectly molded from a 3 D scan of the limb. Um, so that I think is a really important piece for people to understand is that this is not just some thing in a box that you buy and then it's just going to adjust to your limb. It's molded to your limb and then it also is able to move up and down 15% up to 15% down in terms of volume accommodations. So that. You know every apute is different. Their future lines will be slightly different their anatomy might be a little bit different to their shapes and sizes and activity levels are a little bit different some of amputees come from trauma and so. The anatomy will be a little bit different and that's where that custom fit is still very very important even for an adjustable socket.

44:28.71
mike_flywheel
Ah, it's a good maybe segue as you talk about this custom fit and the way you've approached the problem because before you talked about the 2 polar opposites like theoretical and research-based but avoiding commercialization and then the other side of the spectrum. Ah, where there was like overengineered.

44:44.66
Sydney Robinson
There was like over community. Yes, go wow.

44:46.26
mike_flywheel
What we'll call it how much does vessel cost if you're able to share or if you're not like where that is relative to the market today because you did mention the fact that you're solving a problem and you're making it affordable. So I'd love to understand like where that sits is it. About the same price 10% more you can give pricing and details I don't know this space well but whatever you're able to share.

45:07.47
Sydney Robinson
Baseball Absolutely so we are actually discussing our pricing strategy Now. So because we're still in the product development Phase. We're not selling the socket yet. We're aiming to be selling by the end of 2024 and so it's certainly top of mind for us right now. The. Reimbursement for a socket is about $4000 and prosthetists like to keep um the costs of the socket itself to be around $1200 So there's some room for us to play with that. Some of the. Obviously key components of that are going to be compassion based pricing. So for folks that aren't able to afford a prosthetic socket or aren't able to afford one. That's high tech. How can we compensate for that. Um, and then making sure that our early adopters also get a discount on our on our device. That's another thing that we're thinking of. And then signaling to the market that we are Hightech device and we are not high tech in the in the electronics definition but high tech in the way that it automatically adjusts exactly so we we need to make sure when we're developing our price that we keep all of those factors in mind.

46:11.23
mike_flywheel
Innovative Definitely innovative. Yeah.

46:19.00
mike_flywheel
Got it.

46:21.26
Sydney Robinson
And there are also these underlying features that are providing value. We essentially have these 2 different value streams One is the value that we've been talking about the the value for the aptee themselves. But we also have an enormous value that we're bringing to the processes themselves. So about 60% of their appointments that the process have. Are for sockets or socket readjustments because they don't fit properly sometime down the road and so that is problematic for the amputee because it's a disruptive to disruptive to their life and they ah potentially are developing all these blisters and so forth for proscetists. It's problematic because they don't get reimbursed very well for those kinds of appointments. So They get to build these initial prescriptions and fitments of of their devices but when they come back and they need things remolded and they need to figure out exactly where it's rubbing or where they've now developed room because they've healed a little bit and now they're pissing up and down inside the socket. It's actually not really worth their time but they're doing it because they have patients and they are responsible for them. They have to take care of them but they they are losing money. They're losing money that they're using to run their clinics to provide that service. They have a business to run So Our value proposition is to. Reduce those kinds of appointments that where they're not where they're essentially losing money and and providing better care for the patients at the same time.

47:41.70
mike_flywheel
I love it now earlier you talked in the episode about you know your focus being on the us market. You're both canadian um, it's fine I actually want to talk about this. It's funny John ruflow.

47:51.14
Sydney Robinson
Yes.

47:58.44
mike_flywheel
Does not care who I am but he posted something about this the other day and I commented on it and I was just like hey I talked to a bunch of startups I work in here and like there's some interesting things I'm noticing about canadians who sometimes have the desire despite all lot to still stay in Canada seeing market traction. Here in Canada. Ah also I have through my own experiences learned. There is amazing support for research in Canada. However, there's some challenges on funding and support to ever move out of research into commercialization and so. Maybe those are 2 themes. Maybe it's something else I would love your perspective on this and why you're making the decision that you're making um around tackling the us market first especially in the healthcare space because I think that area there's more profound gaps. In the commercialization bit versus research bit but I want to hear your your perspective and your thoughts here.

48:58.26
Sydney Robinson
Yeah, no, that's a great point and and we've certainly seen both of those issues. Um, there is less funding and it's a little bit more risk averse in Canada versus the Us. So that's that's an obvious one. Um and then.

49:10.86
mike_flywheel
And hold on I don't want to interrupt too much but because it's funny because that was sort of how the the John Ruflow post went and it wasn't risk averse necessarily from the people or the founders I don't think his point was because I was like yeah it seems like.

49:17.73
Sydney Robinson
Yeah.

49:23.20
Sydney Robinson
Yeah.

49:29.90
mike_flywheel
You know canadian entities are risk averse and how they decide to use their money on built in Canada they want to see it proven somewhere else first. So it's the adoption that's risk averse. Not the people people are like the people are are risk takers and bold.

49:39.80
Sydney Robinson
No, no, no.

49:45.41
mike_flywheel
But the way they we deploy funds from Canadian Entities procuring innovation seems to be with a gap is.

49:51.90
Sydney Robinson
Procuring procuring innovation or supporting innovation. So angel investors vc groups. There are great ones coming out of Canada. There are great people in Canada who are investors but the fact remains that the people on the us are just more.

49:55.31
mike_flywheel
E.

50:07.68
Sydney Robinson
Able to take riskier deals so you see earlier stage companies being supported a little bit more in the United States um but for us as you mentioned with health care. There's kind of 2 pieces to that pie as well or to that puzzle. However, you want to say it? Um, the first being reimbursement. So we all think oh Canada has freehe care. That's great. And it is and I love that. But each province has a different way of supporting amputees and I'll speak to Ontario since that's where we live. They have the assistive devices program and it will reimburse up to 75% of a prosthetic socket or a prosthetic leg. And the problem with that is that it's only for basic devices so people who want an adjustable socket or a swimming leg or a running blade or all these other fancy unquote devices but really devices that are for the better quality of life and the better health of the amputee. Um, they don't get funded and so it is really hard to pay for tens of thousands of dollars worth of prosthetic devices out of pocket so you just don't have as much of a market in that way whereas in the united states there are certain cpt codes that you can stack to reimburse a prosthetic device even an adjustable one. And so we have more ability for reimbursement there and then on the other side just to add on to that even public insurance like medicare medicaid yeah, not necessarily like fancy private insurance that some would have with like you know, certain jobs or certain careers this this is insurance plans that are available to most of the us market.

51:23.96
mike_flywheel
Guys We've got like a little bit of a better path.

51:42.29
Sydney Robinson
That are able to cover these quite. Well yeah.

51:46.31
mike_flywheel
Yeah, so just adopt path to adoption and funding and procurement of the the device from the individuals is a little bit more um simple I guess.

51:58.75
Sydney Robinson
So exactly it's more favorable.

52:01.50
mike_flywheel
And straightforward and repeatable in the us versus versus Canada. Um.

52:04.93
Sydney Robinson
Persons versus Canada it is and then the other factor is just population size. So Canada is just much smaller than the us. That's what we're hoping to do that's the plan.

52:10.41
mike_flywheel
Got it. Are you going to be keeping yourhq here. Got it. So maybe let's talk about you know we've talked about the product. We've talked about the problem you're solving you're on the cusp of starting to price this out where you're at you know you've you've moved into commercialization and people are able to to to buy this. Um, what is sort of like the next six to twelve months have in store for for vessel.

52:34.88
Sydney Robinson
Um, only five hundred different things. Um, but 1 of the really exciting updates is I'll actually be moving to Texas for three months from September to December and because we got accepted into the tech stars. The fort worth physical health accelerator. And so we are extremely excited that comes with some investment that comes with an incredible amount of mentorship and guidance and um like workshops and and different things like that. So we're we're really excited. We've got some key. Customers that we'd like to Target whose headquarters are in Texas which is one of the reasons we wanted to go down there and some other really amazing strategic partners. So I'm really excited to see what we can execute just by being in the right place at the right time.

53:24.49
mike_flywheel
Well first of all congrats it sounds like at least the next three months are gonna be super busy and super exciting and pivotal in the the next steps no pun intended of your journey. But I love what's what's in store for you? um.

53:28.88
Sydney Robinson
West. A hit Holden.

53:40.74
mike_flywheel
As part of that are there things that people that are you know, either wanting to follow along with your story help and support connect someone that might be in need of a product like vessel where should they be going or what are the types of support you're looking for I guess if you could answer both of those anyone that. Wants to find out more follow the journey and then if if people want to support what type of support could you use right now and and what are you looking for over the next kind of 6 to twelve months

54:06.58
Sydney Robinson
Absolutely anyone with a ah prosthetic background whether that's business related or not. We would love to get your insight so prosthetists amputees people who've owned prosthetic clinics before or prosthetic um device companies. We'd really love to hear from you. And you can reach out in numerous ways. But our website is always a good bet. It's um, vesselpro.com or you can find us on Linkedin. We're fairly active there and then you can also reach out to us via email. So that's either sydney at Vesselpro.com or alexi@vesselpro.com.

54:43.71
Sydney Robinson
We also have vessel dot Ca So for for all the canadians. We've got a Canadian website vessel dot Ca that you can that you can hit up absolutely and but yeah, we'd love. We'd love to hear from everyone in terms of the kind of support. We just really want insights um opinions.

54:50.90
mike_flywheel
Perfect.

54:59.34
Sydney Robinson
We'd love to hear your story If you're an apt or a prosthetist and and your relation to this issue and then of course we're always looking for investors. So people who we can bring in early and and have those conversations with so that we can really start developing those relationships.

55:12.50
mike_flywheel
I love it so we'll make sure all of that's in the in the show notes and the description so people can find it easy I love the work you're doing it sounds like you're at such a pivotal moment in the journey. You've both come and grown and invested so much time and energy in solving this this very significant problem. So. Thank you for coming on the show to share it today I'd love to even do like a regroup you know, maybe six months from now to check in because it seems like there's a massive tide of change that's going to happen over the next six months so I'd love to to welcome you back. But thank you Alexa and Sydney for coming to the show today.

55:35.50
Sydney Robinson
Know maybe states once you tell trade because it's seems like there's some baard.

55:48.21
mike_flywheel
Um, thank you everybody who tuned in I know we don't talk a lot about products. There's a lot of software. So today's product discussion was was super interesting, especially as describing it for anyone that wasn't able to kind of watch the video or even on the video since we didn't we didn't physically have the product. But thanks again for tuning into the pitch please podcast looking forward to catching you all on the next episode Sidney Alexi

56:07.63
Sydney Robinson
Thank you so much Mike it was a pleasure thanks for having us.

56:07.78
mike_flywheel
Thank you again for joining today.