Pitch Please

00:01.59
mike_flywheel
What's up everybody. It's Mike we're back here on the pitch please podcast and today I'm talking to Nelson from haven ah campus safety app or more broadly I think just an app for general safety. I'm looking forward to learning a bunch more about not just haven. But about Nelson he's been through some cool experiences himself. So maybe we kick it off that way. Nelson I'll toss the mic over to you. Let's learn a little bit about you.

00:25.94
Nelson Lee
Hello sure so hi everyone. My name is Nelson the founder and Ceo of Haven which is a safety app that's used by many universities campus organizations governmental agencies all across Canada what we do is we essentially help people get safety. And help whenever they need whether that's when they are in a critical instant or if they're just trying to find the best way to get home. We do all of that through our mobile app to ensure that users as well as organizations that care about their users are able to get the help whenever they need.

00:59.99
mike_flywheel
I Love it. Well you know you are a founder now have you always been a founder did you always know you were going to be a founder where where and how did this kind of come to be.

01:10.25
Nelson Lee
I never thought I would have been a founder when when I started haven so I started haven after a friend shared her sexual assault story with me at the University Of Toronto and she was walking home one night from the library in first year when she was being followed and. Unfortunately assaulted and after having the conversation with her I realized that my skills as an engineer as someone who builds software would be super valuable in creating a tool that allowed people who were going through similar situations to instantly reach out to a friend a family member. To a security organization or to just contact 10 one in a much more efficient manner and so that's where haven started and how I started becoming a founder and so I never imagined even becoming much more than just a tool that helped certain individuals. But. It really grew a leg of its own and has transcended to what I mean initially a thought of making it to be to something where right now we're helping universities keep their students safe. We're helping with sexual assault agencies across the country when it comes to their victims and ensuring that they don't fall. Into that cycle of abuse and violence again. It's just been such an incredible journey thus far.

02:28.37
mike_flywheel
Interesting. So there's this like obviously very impactful story of how this started but before that you you so you were in in software engineering is that what you were going to school for or that's like the path you were on and.

02:45.68
Nelson Lee
Yeah, so I am studying computer engineering at the University Of Toronto um and just as an engineer always trying to find problems to solve I've always been super involved with my community and trying to find ways to give back and so when the opportunity to use. My skills on both of these aspects and fronts to to build something to truly make a difference I jumped at the the first opportunity I could to do it.

03:10.88
mike_flywheel
You? Well and you're like the unicorn right? because I think like probably 95% of founders that I talked to maybe just by some chance. They're not technical at all and they're all like I need to figure someone out to be my Cto. My technical co-founder.

03:21.60
Nelson Lee
Return that.

03:29.80
mike_flywheel
Have an idea and I need to bring it to life where you're like I can build shit and someone came to me and I was like I I can actually solve that problem and build something for that instead of like starting with the idea you you saw the opportunity and you took it So you're like you are the technical co-founder.

03:38.68
Nelson Lee
Um.

03:49.60
mike_flywheel
Or you're the technical founder. Are you a sole founder of the of the business.

03:49.46
Nelson Lee
Um, yeah, so we initially had a cofounder Ethan ah, but since then just the the stress of the entire journey has been a little much but it's been great when we start because we were both technical and so from.

04:04.67
mike_flywheel
Oh Wow A freaking double unicorn.

04:07.00
Nelson Lee
Day one. We were just coding and and just diving right in because within the span of a few months we were able to go from idea to hundreds of customer interviews to a fully fleshed out product and something that we launched by. Start the next school year when we initially launched statement.

04:29.97
mike_flywheel
Wow. Okay, um I Want to talk about some things that maybe I don't get the opportunity to to go down with with some other founders. So this whole like like your technical founder. So um and.

04:35.74
Nelson Lee
Sure.

04:43.94
mike_flywheel
As you started building this out talk to me about the the process that you went through like the business side of it is probably more foreign to you so you knew how to to build so you were talking to some people. There's these interviews talk to me about that process.

04:58.97
Nelson Lee
Yeah, um, as someone from a technical background I knew how to really build the thing and and get it going from there but what I understood from the beginning for haven was we're targeting a market of 181920 year olds primarily in University Or College this might be their first time away from home and so the actual user experience had to be paramount when when we were building and so when I was doing these interviews I really wanted to understand what did people like about. Potential existing solutions and what are some things that they wish they had because I knew what to do to get whichever idea we needed to build out into the world but the actual ideas that made sense and would make a difference in people's lives that was what I really focused on and so. For me when it came to those customer interviews I just essentially put out a survey link on my social media feeds and over two hundred people responded in terms of how they felt about safety where they felt unsafe. What features they wished they had. And from there just conducting Zoom calls with each of them since we started this in 21 and so we had to do it completely online people were still really locked down and understanding their needs so that when we return from a covid world. We aren't returning with those dangers that.

06:27.18
Nelson Lee
Preceded um guy for.

06:30.83
mike_flywheel
Interesting. So um, ah maybe what would be cool to understand is even just like from a technical cofounder's perspective. What are the types of questions or how are you because you were trying to understand the problem but then in the back you knew you could kind of build. Whatever.

06:43.70
Nelson Lee
Come? yeah.

06:46.76
mike_flywheel
So you were what were the questions that were most important to figuring out what to build because a lot of people started the other way right? They're like this is the thing I want built but was cool. Is you you started with questions and I think it'd be good for people to know what those questions are because it might help them build better product. Um, at the end of the day.

06:53.82
Nelson Lee
Yeah.

07:05.40
Nelson Lee
Yeah, for sure. The first question that I o ask is what value are you truly providing ah for for a lot of different products. You're either growing other people's revenues you're decreasing their expenses. You're making their lives more convenient. When it came to haven and safety I had to really rethink that because you're not It's hard to quantify these types of measures in a way where you're providing value and so from day one I was trying to ask what would what would it take for you to use an app that claims to keep you safe every day. What are some features that you would use on a daily basis that you feel would elevate your peace of mind and if anything bad happens. You're able to use instantly and so that really centered how we thought about haven from the get-go I always wanted there to be an emergency response aspect to it where if you're ever in danger. You're able to reach out get help send your location share your status and receive whatever resources you need as quickly as possible but the real hurdle that I saw when sort of asking these questions about value was how do you get someone to actually use it every day so that during an emergency. They actually think of. The app they actually think of opening up their phone clicking on an app clicking on a button and to get help rather than just being paralyzed by the situation and so I think the questions that you ask when comes to value. That's the number one most important thing because you know if you're not delivering value.

08:38.20
Nelson Lee
There's no point in what you're building or what you're trying to solve and so for me that was the first thing I asked the second was sort of existing user patterns and so we saw a really big dichotomy between interviews that we had with male users and female users. As well as users from across the world where so in some cities it is just slightly more unsafe than in other users. For example, when we interviewed people in Tokyo it was a very different experience that we heard from them compared to. Ah, users that we had when we talked to people in the states or inferious parts of Cand or other parts of the world and so sort of understanding where people are coming from I think is the second big thing that you really need to understand and ask about in detail.

09:29.81
mike_flywheel
How did you go about getting um much of this input because I think that and maybe there's a little bit of the scenario in which you're you're solving. But I think part part of it is people used a good word but for different purpose people kind of get like paralyzed. Ah, or like the analysis paralysis where they're like I wish I could get user feedback but like I don't know I'm trying to build a business I'm ah going to go to that end user to that company and be like well I don't have it yet. But what would you do like what was your was It is it all just like you know.

09:46.77
Nelson Lee
Um, in.

10:03.60
mike_flywheel
Fictional block and people should just reach out or there's some ways in which you got your survey out there. You had social but it sounds like you got people from all over the world from a pretty diverse set What what? What did you do and how could others maybe replicate some of that.

10:08.69
Nelson Lee
And.

10:17.53
Nelson Lee
Yeah, so I think the first thing there, there's 2 poles of the experience. The extremities here that you want to avoid the first is having a clear mindset as to what you're going to build and the second one is having no idea what you're going to build and so I think. You need to go into this process when asking users with a vision of the world that you want to see while asking them. How do you think we could best get there and so you don't want them to feel directionless because if if that's the case then they don't know what to write down. Or what to even select if you even have a survey or feedback form. They're going to be as clueless as you might be in that situation and then when it comes to the reach and the um trying to access as many points of data as you can for us. We are extremely lucky. Being in university at such an international school at the University Of Toronto to be able to get access to not just our friends who are from all across the world but their friends as well and so that really helped in sort of expanding that network and for myself, you know if I weren't in university or in such a. University where forty fifty percent of the students in my cohort were from outside of Canada and North America I wouldn't have the ability to access their experiences in various parts of the world and so I think that really helps and so if you're able to tap into a network or America where you're.

11:46.20
Nelson Lee
Ah, ah, able to actually connect with users all across the world for certain segments. You know if you're on a subreddit a lot of times you have people all across the world being able to provide input provide feedback. We got quite a few responses from Redit forums when we post on for example, like our slash e of t. And a few others as well and so you just have to really see what makes the most sense for the idea that you're trying to solve if it's a very localized issue then it doesn't make sense to go all across the world and so you want to focus in on those efforts there. But if you are trying to reach as bravo market as possible. You know, find someone who has that network to be able to amplify your voice and so for example, um, one of Ethan's friends she had I believe around 30 or 40000 instagram followers and so she was willing to make um the effort of just point our survey link on her story as well. And so that really. Helped and so there are just so many different things that you have to do but the key of it is be creative in the way to reach out because as a founder on day. 1 You don't have that many resources inherently if you're especially if you're a first time founder like we were so you just have to be creative in the ways that you. Get the information that you get so that you have the upper hand compared to other companies out there who have billions of dollars and could probably build what you're building as quickly and as um, pretty much as awesome as you are, um, but they might not have as much of that information as you do.

13:20.77
mike_flywheel
That's interesting. But I think even um, there's some things that you were just sharing there which is like just ask like you probably don't understand the power that you have within just your own network if you actually just come to it with humility and ask. And you don't know where that might go because it sounds like even in your snare you asked and asked and there was a couple people that leaned in and it really expanded the the horizons and then even even forums and networks and um, you you talked about networks but forums is a thing that I think you talked about which is like go on Reddit go on a blog.

13:43.14
Nelson Lee
Um, yeah.

13:50.60
Nelson Lee
And.

13:54.49
mike_flywheel
There's people probably having discussions and if they are try to understand if they're willing to participate and give feedback in the thing you're working on and if you're sharing your opinion online chances are you'll you'll share it pretty openly with someone who's tried to solve the problem. Um, so I think that's really really good sound. Um sound advice.

14:08.60
Nelson Lee
Um, yeah.

14:14.44
mike_flywheel
Now talk to us a little bit about this space because I think you've referred to it a couple times and naively I'm going to say well like Haven I'm confused or trying to understand where it fits in versus just calling 9 one 1 and I'm sure your feedback led you to so many things that. Maybe I'm not thinking about many others aren't thinking about to talk to us about the spectrum of what happens like who people call what exists out there I remember like when I went to mcmaster they've got the the like emergency like the poll the poll. Yeah yeah, so like what are the options available.

14:41.77
Nelson Lee
Um.

14:46.31
Nelson Lee
The blue lights. And yeah, yeah.

14:52.88
mike_flywheel
And then that can start to get down to like what were the gaps that you found when when looking at what's out there today. So.

14:56.35
Nelson Lee
Yeah, for sure. So when we were doing our research the obvious things that existed were on-campus security resources whether that's campus police. You could call 9 one 1 There were some apps out there like like 3 60 which allowed you to perpetually share your location with. Family as well. But that was sort of the limits as to what we were seeing on the technological side on the physical side. You know people who have or wanted to elevate their safety have always been using things like holding their keys in their hand or occasionally having a bottle of pepper spray or having a ripe whistle on their. Ah, ah in their body or ah within reach at all times and so that was sort of the world that we were working within and so the limitations of that are the first thing is let's say you're just simply trying to get home a lot of times, especially for the the rates that we see when it comes to. Various rates of incidents or assaults. Ah occurs to primarily younger students who whether they're in first year or to female students or students who are new to an area and so those are 3 categories that we found that um, based on just data that were provided by universities and from the government. Ah, where the rates of incident were the highest and the reason for that is they don't know which areas to avoid some errors are inherently more more unsafe and so that was something that we thought was a big gap in the market. The second thing is the speed at which you actually are able to get help.

16:31.31
Nelson Lee
First is. For example, if you call 9 one when if you're unfamiliar with an area or if you're simply stressed. You don't know what to do most people, especially if you're in your university your college. It might be your first time calling nine one when you don't know which intersection you're at if you're at a house party. You have no clue what your address is a lot of times you might be. Intoxicated or you just might be in a daze because very frankly, it's a scary situation. No matter how many times you've been through it and so for us we wanted to simplify the process of getting help as well as increasing the likelihood that you don't need help in the first place by providing. Safer access to resources and routes and so that was sort of the gap that we saw and out of that came 2 solutions. The first was to sort of address. How do you get home safely and so with that weight.

17:20.95
mike_flywheel
And like the proactiveness of it if you will.

17:25.14
Nelson Lee
Proactiveness for sure. Yeah, and so one of things that we built was called safestroute and so for example, if you're familiar with Waze where you use the ways app and it helps you navigate around traffic jams and speed lights and cameras. Essentially we do the same thing with crowd source data and we reroute students on their way home away from street corners where other people and users have felt unsafe where there's been a higher likelihood of reported incidents provided by public police data by looking at foot traffic data by looking at. How well-lit as streetus and how frequented it is we provide an algorithmic way to allow you to get home safely by navigating around cerned unsafe areas and so for example, we say you can use Google Maps if you want to find the fastest way to walk home. But you could use havenbin to find the safest way to walk home and then on the ah the reactive si when it actually comes to an emergency we have and we've worked with safety experts and sexual assault experts from day one to build a really simple 4 level emergency tier mode and so when you start emergency mode. Instantly your friends and your families are alerted of your location if you downloaded the haven app via your university your campus police and security organization also sees where you are who you are and whether or not you need help from there. We allow you to escalate.

18:54.90
Nelson Lee
Level of emergency whether that's by calling a friends of family members inside the app starting a siren to attract the attention of bystanders or when you're calling 9 1 1 we geotag where you are and we allow you to provide the exact address of where you are. 2 emergency operators and in some schools that we work with we can actually allow you to provide exactly which room you're in via wi-fi routers to emergency operators and campus security agencies as well and so that's truly a big difference. For example, if your first year union in a large university building.

19:15.48
mike_flywheel
Wow.

19:27.83
Nelson Lee
You might not know where the heck you are at all if you're in a residence building.

19:29.92
mike_flywheel
Yeah, like you're just in the yeah incredible. Yeah I didn't even think about that because you're like at ah an address has like such a broad spectrum in that regard right? and.

19:36.81
Nelson Lee
Yeah, and so we essentially simplify all of that for you and so when you call 9 1 1 with the haven f we provide you a script to read off of and it says essentially hive. My name is blah I need buyer police or medical. This is my address this is where I am here's a number.

19:44.97
mike_flywheel
Oh wow.

19:55.72
Nelson Lee
My call disconnects and then we have some subsequent questions that you could add on. If for example, you need immediate help or there's an immediate threat things to remind the user to really shorting the time it takes for emergency operators to go from picking up the call to sending the first sort our vehicle of help.

20:12.36
mike_flywheel
Yeah, because you you remove some of the cognitive load of them like being flustered and it's just add access and you know the questions that are going to be asked because they're probably very similar every time or identical I imagine and so you're getting aheaded ad being proactive so it reduces the cognitive.

20:14.80
Nelson Lee
And so that those are.

20:18.83
Nelson Lee
Um, for sure. Yeah, yeah.

20:31.17
mike_flywheel
Hello during like a panic scenario an emergency scenario which is is really interesting.

20:33.78
Nelson Lee
Um, yeah, we essentially streamline and hold their hand during an emergency and that's the key thing because if you are if you feel like you are in control of this situation then that inherently reduces the amount of stress that you feel. But we really see as a 2 wo-prong solution right? We need to do it Well on the proactive side provide safety and the safest way for you to get to where you want to be and then in case things do escally to the point where you need serious help. We Want to get you that help as quickly as possible.

21:06.41
mike_flywheel
I Love it now. Obviously this is for the end user I Guess that wants to be more safe but is it also for their friends and family. Do they need to have their friends and family on haven for it to work. Um, like who do you generally bring this to I know you're talking before about Campuses. So does the campus provide it for the student. Um, what's your target kind of demographic I Guess of of how and who needs to use or should be using the the haven app.

21:42.14
Nelson Lee
Yeah, so right now our Target demographic is not actually the end user but fearious organizations who have access to end-user for example. Ah, for example, universities or or ah governmental agencies and so when we go to universities we tell them hey look. Provide this to your students make this a fun orientation event. You could add in a part about consent. You could add in a part about safety and drinking responsibly but you could also provide them an actual tool for when they need help in case of emergencies or other incidents and so we go to universities with. This pitch and then they provide to their students and then students are able to add their roommate their friend or their family member if they wish to have added level of security but the bare minimum once they download the haven app via their university. They are automatically connected to resources on campus whether that's a sexual assault agency on campus. Or campus security or other services or legal clinics and anything else that the school already provides and we sort of just aggregate all those resources for them during emergencies or other instances.

22:49.85
mike_flywheel
I got it So it's in some ways I guess a B to B to C solution because although C is the end user of it. You need like someone to help kind of distribute it and add value to it along the way as you were saying right? because there's a connectedness.

22:55.47
Nelson Lee
Correct.

23:08.62
Nelson Lee
Um, yeah.

23:09.50
mike_flywheel
To that space or place or City or campus any of those elements to incrementally add value in what haven can provide to.

23:14.45
Nelson Lee
Um, for sure. Yeah, and so initially we were b to c when we first launched. Um and as someone who has done 0 marketing before that went. Extremely poor link. Um, and so we sort of thought. Okay, what are the best ways to reach all university students at once. What's a trusted source that's much more trusted than an Instagram ad or Facebook ad or even a lot of times word of mouth from a fellow friend and that. For the most part for a lot of students coming into their university journey is their university is their residence is their orientation dawn is there like these are the people that they trust for their life now on campus and so we go to them and allow them to really be the amplifiers of the haven app.

24:04.94
mike_flywheel
Can you talk about that a bit like we glossed over it but you kind of jokingly made funny like you know as someone no marketing experience I thought it was this when did you kind of realize like that's not that's not it was it like an advisor was it. You tried it What broke What didn't work and how did you kind of pivot.

24:05.71
Nelson Lee
For us.

24:10.69
Nelson Lee
And.

24:22.52
mike_flywheel
That direction to start going to the influencers of um and trusted kind of sources to help distribute your your application and.

24:30.16
Nelson Lee
Yeah, for sure. So when we launched initially it just wasn't sticky enough as a product like quite frankly if it was sticky enough even without that trusted visor or you know the university in the middle it would have if a product market fit when we launch. It would have grown on its own quite frankly and so it it just didn't have it and so we need a way to sort of supercharge our growth get it into people's hands have people build those networks inside the haven app with their friends and their family and add each other and really get that value out of it. And then see if there's a way for us to constantly iterate on the product and the experience itself where down the line. Our goal is to eventually go to b to c because there's going to be people that we can't reach down the line in a few years time through an organization and we can only reach them directly because. Quite frankly, they aren't affiliate with an organization and because of that that's why they are the most unsafe out of all of the people that we're trying to help and so yeah, initially, who's just realizing you know our retention numbers sucked. Our referral rates sucked. And and the user sort of experience just wasn't good enough at the very beginning that sort of allowed me to sort of shift the focus but it also allowed us to shift the sort of business model as well because for b to c the actual end user themselves needs to feel like.

26:02.22
Nelson Lee
Want to pay for it and most people don't think about their own safety to a point where they are willing to pay for it unless something has happened to them already and so we had to find a way to also bring in revenue and so going to the schools themselves to see an obvious use case for their own purposes and a way for them to you know. Provide more safety for the students. We Also found that as a really conducive revenue stream while we worked on our product to ensure that we could get it to a place where it is good enough for it to be a truly B to C. Um, way to grow.

26:35.40
mike_flywheel
So was this like an obvious pivot like we're talking about it like it. It naturally happened. But I imagine there is this moment of like okay maybe there's no product market fit here. Maybe what we thought from all of the surveys. Wasn't a big enough problem to solve. How did you get taught like was there guidance did you just kind of work through this was his days was his weeks. Um, because I think what's so interesting about it is you made a very successful and smart pivot that pivoted both your.

27:09.77
Nelson Lee
Anything.

27:12.10
mike_flywheel
Product design a little bit your distribution model and your customer and and who's paying but so many startups in that similar scenario just keep growing. No no, we need more marketing more right? So it was what was the moment of reflection and pivot in that decision making process.

27:17.14
Nelson Lee
Yeah, thanks.

27:24.60
Nelson Lee
Ah.

27:31.50
mike_flywheel
So that maybe others can learn from it. Yeah.

27:31.29
Nelson Lee
For sure it was when we had a first statement from Apple and in terms of the revenue that we made from subscriptions and I remember it was around $25 I think there were 6 or 7 people who subscribed out of. We had 1100 downloads in the first week and around 2 200 by the end of the month and so a very infinitesimal number and these the initial downloads were from our friends like aren't from our friends from friends of friends or people who have heard through us organically and through. You know, relatively high levels of trust and knowing us in 1 way or another and so even in such a circle like that we had such a low conversion rate when it came to downloads and users to paid users and so I just. I knew that for this to continue going because I didn't want it to stop simply because we can't make money to keep the lights on that would really defeat the purpose of why I started in the first place which was to help people and so I thought there had to be a way to just be able to bring in customers who are willing to pay. Who are willing to actually send us an email and to inquire about the product and say how can we implement this here and so that that's that seeing that number of $25 made me pivot because it was just so small and.

29:04.45
Nelson Lee
Compared to the download rates and I knew like even if we were to continue going that percentage would become even smaller because now we're reaching into the ether you know if we're going to reach people through Instagram ads and it costs 2 or three bucks per click and we can't even bring that back. And that's not just that's not sustainable like quite quite frankly and for us as a bootstrap company to to realize that so that we're able to continue to grow in a profitable and sustainable manner I you I just had to pull the trigger and say okay. I know that universities will always want to have this but we need to build a few more features. We can't just have an app we need to have an admin portal. We need a way for them to invite their students. We need a way for them to send push notifications. We need a way for them to update their resources on their own time. We need a way for them to see a location of where instances are occurring. And a pipeline of where when an incident occurs they alerts the various members of the university and their team that need to be alerted and so that came with another redevelopment of part of the product but it was really crucial initially to just realize you know b to c as of now as a team of 2 engineers is not. We don't have the capability to iterate quickly enough fast enough in a way to keep up and to keep the lights on at the same time.

30:30.41
mike_flywheel
Yeah, it's interesting. It's almost like um my ah my friend vaoon who leads access to success focuses on accessibility startups and there's a lot of similarities between what you're saying which is like part of their incubator.

30:38.61
Nelson Lee
And.

30:46.00
mike_flywheel
Specifically focuses on scenarios that drive value for the end user but the end user should not be burdened with the cost and so you have to find um the people who need to pay to help support the end users because it's.

30:53.50
Nelson Lee
Um, yeah.

31:05.54
mike_flywheel
Almost not logical not to do it because it it adds value in your promise to that end customer right? and so to your point like University's A university's promise to its end customer is that they should have the ability to come here and learn part of that being safety so they invest in security.

31:07.66
Nelson Lee
Um, yeah.

31:11.20
Nelson Lee
Crack.

31:20.56
Nelson Lee
And yeah.

31:25.52
mike_flywheel
And police and mental health resources and ah like they invest in those things so just logically the same way you would hire a few more security guards you would help provide this as a a piece of service to your customers. Um, as a value ad so it's such a smart pivot I Love the.

31:35.36
Nelson Lee
Um, yeah.

31:44.89
mike_flywheel
And obviously you could build it so that helps um, but but it's cool to like see that evolution and then you caught it early enough. You caught it so fast and and made that and made that pivot. So let's talk about maybe that that portion like how do you make money. It sounds like the schools pay but like how does that work is it infinite.

31:45.21
Nelson Lee
Yeah, but.

31:55.40
Nelson Lee
Um.

32:03.99
mike_flywheel
Users what? what are the customers. So we've talked about universities a lot. Maybe that's your customers today but who are all the possible customers of of haven in in this new kind of pivot for.

32:15.50
Nelson Lee
Yeah, and so right now we focus a lot on educational institutions just because they have it within their budgets to provide the services that we provide them down the line where we're already working with various governmental agencies where it's also part of their mandates. But the next step is definitely with workplaces and businesses they have it. You know a responsibility to ensure that their employees especially if they have night shifts or you know you walking home in Canada at 5 p M in winter. It's already dark and to to to provide that level of.

32:48.63
mike_flywheel
Okay.

32:53.58
Nelson Lee
Safety for their employees and to be able to access you know hr resources if they need to file a sexual assault complaint to be able to do that in a secure manner and in a way where you know the actual employee is not being retaliated against at times as well as. Being able for employees to reach out for help when they need it and so that's the next ah moat that we're we're going to really look at and and go into which is what businesses be able to connect, especially if you're working in an office to be connected to the office security. You're working late at night and you're the only only one in the office just be able to connect with various resources so that you're able to work remotely um or alone and be safe in that matter and so that's the next step of where we're expanding when it comes to businesses and then simultaneously. Our safest route feature which is the crowdsource way of finding where things are unsafe in a city um to picks up and we are getting more and more data points then we're also going to truly focus on b two c because at that point. When you open the app. You're able to get instant value out of it without even need to add a single friend or family member or even have an emergency whatsoever in the similar way that you open ways or Google Maps and you're able to get instant value once we have enough data points to provide that to a completely fresh and new user.

34:23.90
Nelson Lee
Then we're we're going to really embark again on pushing the B to C drive because that's the way we get from helping students at universities and colleges and at sun workplaces to being able to truly help anyone out there who just wants to be. Much safer in their day-to-day life.

34:42.14
mike_flywheel
I I love it. Um, so in in that ah in that regard it today. Um, it's a universities you're looking to expand into workplaces. Sounds like you're integrating into a bunch of things where where are you at in this journey like how big's the team. How many places is this available today. Um, talk to us about where you're at and it sounds like you've got some amazing roadmap and and goals to go kind of tackle over the. I mean we're just on the cost I think this by the time this gets released. We'll be crashing into 2024 so let's talk about your light up 2024 year red but also where you are now.

35:23.19
Nelson Lee
Yeah, so right now we're at 4 universities in Kada and so we serve a total of 120000 students across all of Kada we also work with various agencies and organizations.

35:30.61
mike_flywheel
Wow.

35:38.71
Nelson Lee
For example, in February we're partnering with the current district school board. They have a youth symposium where they provide and they're going to provide our app and provide teaching courses and ways for I believe the number that they said for themposium was around 25000 students and so we're slowly building our way across the country with all the organizations that we're working with to ensure that the ultimate end user is able to stay safe currently a team that myself the 2 interns and they are absolutely just incredible people and such hard workers and they they love. Learning and so I just absolutely adore the work that they do and think they will um you know in their own time become incredible entrepreneurs because both of them they reached out to us on their own and said we wanted to we. We love the mission we wanted to see how we could help.

36:27.12
mike_flywheel
While.

36:34.21
Nelson Lee
And so that's where the team is right now and in 24 our goal is to just keep crugging along I think this Christmas and this holiday season going to really rethink just all parts of business ensure that we have a well oil machine from. Sales to the finance side to the operations ensure that everything is flowing well together because we have customers. We have pre reputtable customers as well. Um, and trying to build from there having a really solid sales pitch. And refining our sales page and continuing to make that better to ensuring that on the business side. We're able to maximize as much as we can and to you know we're providing a lot of value and so if we're able to recoup some of the value and revenue to maximize that as much as we can. And then operationally how do we grow the technology but also the team from here to ensure that we're in a much stronger place by the end of 2024.

37:35.11
mike_flywheel
So ah, on that note like if if people are listening in and um, you could ask for any help to expedite your mission who would it be from and and what would what are like the 1 or 2 things that would be most helpful to haven. Right now other than like maybe a few more hours in the day for your passionate team at 3 to bang everything out and get it into the into the public but what what kind of help or support. Do you need right now.

37:59.42
Nelson Lee
Yeah, if there's any help from people who have connections to an organization who ultimately cares and feels a sense of responsibility for their users their students or people that they care for. Put us in touch with them. My emails nelson at Havensafe Co if you're able to just simply connect us that would be absolutely a game changer for us. Our goal is to always be able to provide our product and more and more organizations like that and any help in any form intros makes it. Big big difference in our endeavor I think a lot of our the the ways that we've been acquiring business thus far has been through those warm introductions and um, any more of those would always be more than welcome.

38:45.26
mike_flywheel
Got it warm Intros so it sounds like municipalities. Um businesses anyone that has end customers that they serve who they want to make sure are safe. Um I love it. You've got. We've gone through a few of them I think um.

38:56.17
Nelson Lee
Yeah.

39:04.67
mike_flywheel
But but it sounds like you've got so much rich knowledge and like all this advice across a couple pivots across how to go build the way to ask the questions. But um, you know is there something that you feel that you've learned through the experiences you've had so far. And building and bringing haven to market that you think other people that are either. Um I don't mean to say this in a rude way but like accidental entrepreneurs were like you're a builder but you you know didn't know what challenge yet or maybe you're someone that knows you want to solve something and you just need.

39:32.97
Nelson Lee
And.

39:40.15
mike_flywheel
To kind of break through and start it like what what kind of advice would you share with someone who maybe doesn't even know they're going to be an entrepreneur yet or someone who is dead set on being an entrepreneur but just doesn't know where to start. Okay.

39:49.78
Nelson Lee
Yeah I think the biggest advice for an entrepreneur is definitely where do you see yourself ending up. Are you trying to build a social enterprise. Are you trying to build a billion dollar business are you trying to build a lifestyle business that. Allows you to live comfortably with your family but is not super backbreaking and ah just crazy in that other regards as you would if you were to trying to build a multibillion dollar trillion dollar business I think that's the key thing for. A lot of entrepreneurs to figure out from day one is where do you see yourself ending up because if you don't know where you're ending up. It's going to be hard to a find an idea that fits that and if you do find an idea that fits that and it doesn't fit to the idea doesn't fit to where you want to end up then there's going to be a discourse between. What you want to do and what you are actually doing and so I think that's the first piece of advice I would give to entrepreneurs um is just figure out where you want to end up because that allows you to have an idea and then sort of it removes a lot of the. Ah, it gives you an idea and sense of okay if I have a vision for a company if I wanted to make a billion dollar company what are some basic things that need to happen. For example, you need 100000000 in revenue you need lots of users and then from there you're able to refine and sort of call down. What actually.

41:19.75
Nelson Lee
Makes sense for where you want to end up. So I think that's the first piece of advice I would give to entrepreneurs the second is I have throughout the years developed a fourtier business tier list and the first. I'll sort of go through the tiers from the top to the bottom and I think haven is at sort of the bottom when it comes to just pure business ideas. The first is companies that help other companies make more money I think that's the easiest to sell if you could promise to someone pay me a dollar I'll help you make $2 easy the other the second tier is. Businesses that help other businesses or people save money pay me a dollar I'll save you $2 the third is things that help people sort of improve their life. Their quality of life improvements like uber and you know airbnb as a user you're able to go and have a. you're able to save time and all of that and then the tier that I would put even in a lot of other businesses that are these are nice to have things where a lot of people. They don't really see them as a necessity. It's hard to convince the broad public that this is something that they are. they should pay for and they have to pay for and so I I think that's the other piece of vice is trying to if you're trying to do a business understand where your business fits in and how and you're able to optimize the model as well as what you're building and the customers that you're targeting.

42:49.64
Nelson Lee
As well as where you end up where where you see the business ending up to ensure that it fits in within sort of that cure list of ultimate ideas.

42:58.61
mike_flywheel
Um I Love it. It's Funny. The first one you said mirrors a little bit of a something I've talked about a few times something that the recording I was doing just previous to this um shared which is like the you need to know and have clarity and conviction. Around what you're building and there's no right answer wrong answer like anyone that it's outside of that aside of you don't let them influence. It. He called it money or power I think it's impact or money and is it are you building a business for money that can still have an impact or are you more focused on the impact.

43:30.73
Nelson Lee
Um.

43:38.20
mike_flywheel
Regardless of money and I think that's the way to frame it right? where it's like you want this impact to happen Even if you were dirt broke at the end made no money but you had that thing change or hey you really want to make money and you believe you can have an impact.

43:39.00
Nelson Lee
Um, yeah.

43:49.80
Nelson Lee
Yeah.

43:51.78
mike_flywheel
And it's funny because I think everyone always starts with that. Oh I'm trying to have an impact be like okay, great. So if you solved this and you made $0 ever and you committed the rest of your life to it. Are you okay with that well okay that right and so I think that there's ah, there's an importance there where it's like.

43:57.92
Nelson Lee
Um.

44:06.16
Nelson Lee
Ah, yeah.

44:10.33
mike_flywheel
Or maybe not $0 but enough just to live like you can live but you're not you know, no altruistic motives at that point. So I think that delineation is really important is which one's priority first because it's impact or money and everyone always tries to like shy away from the fact that they want to make money but like it's real like.

44:20.46
Nelson Lee
Yeah.

44:30.14
mike_flywheel
Don't shy away from that if that is a core goal of what you're trying to do and you're like I want to do this as an entrepreneur the second one I Love that framework where you're like and it's so true. The easiest thing to do is sell things that help people make more money because it's dollars in dollars out it. It' kind of like it's a flywheel and.

44:31.54
Nelson Lee
Yeah.

44:44.33
Nelson Lee
Yeah, it's measurable. It's easy. It's It's much easier process. It's not yeah.

44:49.40
mike_flywheel
And yeah, and then the save the save ones to your point. It's second hard is like hey here's a dollar and I could theoretically or immediately save um savings are are also very valuable and then the other pieces which are like convenience which is harder to measure.

44:58.79
Nelson Lee
Yeah, yeah.

45:06.80
Nelson Lee
And.

45:08.57
mike_flywheel
Because it's like a tangible. It's not as tangible. It's more qualitative than quantitative most times and then the last piece is this thing that drives impact and value but is not ah necessity or at least until it's needed isn't a necessity.

45:15.20
Nelson Lee
Yep.

45:20.57
Nelson Lee
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

45:28.70
mike_flywheel
And I think that's the thing you're touching on which is ah which is so apparent like you you had tremendous value but people don't know they necessarily need it until they need it. So how you bring a third party into that mix is so valuable in terms of what you're creating. So um I love the framework I'm going to use it if you're okay with that.

45:32.34
Nelson Lee
Yeah.

45:42.58
Nelson Lee
For sure of course.

45:46.58
mike_flywheel
More and more often I might start categorizing every business we talk to moving forward to to figure out where where they fit on that 4 piece. Ah yeah, well thank thank you for joining me today. Nelson I learned a ton what you're doing is amazing and if I can help in any way I would love to. Um.

45:52.78
Nelson Lee
Ah, where they fit in. Yeah.

46:05.66
mike_flywheel
As we wrap up if people want to find out more where should they go. We'll put it in the show notes and stuff too I Just want to make sure we direct people in the right direction.

46:15.30
Nelson Lee
Sure they could just head on to our website havensafe.ceo um and you're able to find our contact if you want to reach out to us book a demo or simply just learn more about what we do.

46:23.96
mike_flywheel
Amazing! Thanks again for joining us tonight. Thank you to everybody who listened if you haven't yet make sure to go check them out if you can download it directly otherwise make sure to at least advocate for havensafe to your university or your employer. It's definitely a way to help them ah reach out to to open up and and broaden their their impact on on this immediate priority. Thanks again and Nelson and you and the team of 3 go crush it out there I'm I'm rooting for you guys and and looking forward to everything and and thanks again to everyone who listened in tonight. Have a great night.