Pitch Please

00:01.84
mike_flywheel
What's up everybody. This is Mike back with the pitch please podcast today. We're talking to Jess and Brin from double welcome to the show Jess and Brin. Maybe we can start with a quick introduction about each of you.

00:13.18
Jessica Bosman
Yeah, thank you so much for having us. We're really excited to be here um quick intro. Yeah, my name is Jess and brit and I met in our 30 year university and we incorporated double three years ago and are quickly scaling up to launch.

00:30.39
mike_flywheel
Brain how it yourself. Yeah.

00:32.56
Jessica Bosman
I'll pass the turn.

00:32.98
Bryn
Yeah, um, and I'm burnn I'm the other half of double um a bit about our backgrounds I guess so jes his background is in fashion merchandising and buying so she comes from some pretty cooll companies like essence mec and Herschel. And then I've built my career and in marketing. Um at Unilever so Cpg world.

00:55.50
mike_flywheel
Cool. So we've got a bit of background in retail and cpg and then also in in marketing now. Let's let's maybe start at the beginning so you both met you said in university you're both Canadian but it sounds like when we're talking before you didn't actually meet in Canada did you. Or you did meet in Canada first.

01:15.23
Jessica Bosman
We did meet. Yeah, we did meet in Canada we met at University At Ivy however we kind of grew our friendship on a trip to New York where we went to a female conference at Yale which was really fun and.

01:17.26
Bryn
Um, you know I yeah.

01:20.61
mike_flywheel
Ah, okay.

01:32.71
Jessica Bosman
We were able to kind of get of the classroom and ideate and become closer friends that way.

01:39.47
mike_flywheel
Cool I so I totally misinterpreted London I thought you guys met in like London england it's cool. Glad we sorted that out really early otherwise I would have been asking you about the time change or something else. Um, now I want to learn a bit more.

01:42.34
Bryn
Um, little little London.

01:43.55
Jessica Bosman
Um, oh yeah, so.

01:48.70
Jessica Bosman
Yeah, it's the last cool London unfortunately.

01:51.14
Bryn
Yeah.

01:55.65
mike_flywheel
Um, about each of you. So maybe we just start with jes you know, tell us a little bit about maybe what you went to school for and what sort of brought you into that space like was that what you went to school for have you always been interested in like fashion and retail. Maybe let's start with that and then Bri I'd love to learn the same about your kind of marketing background.

02:12.44
Jessica Bosman
Yeah I've always had a really deep interest in fashion and aesthetic and design in that entire world. It's always like spoken to me so when I was in high school I wanted to be fashion designers so I was taking a bunch of sewing classes and design courses and art and then as I was spending. My day's sewing and you know you don't learn a lot in high school about all the different career opportunities. So I was under the impression that in order to be a fashion designer. You were sewing twenty four 7 and that would be your job which I now know isn't true, but it's what I thought at the time and I after doing it for a couple years I realized. I wanted to be a little bit more on the academic side and I didn't want to do a hands on job Twenty four seven so that's what led me to business and then I found it about buying in my I think my last year of university actually we had this conference that ivy does each year called the fashion retail conference and 1 of the senior buyers from essence came to speak and I was like this is exactly what I want to do and yeah, so the only jobs I applied for throughout iv were in the fashion space I did a lot of networking and then. I got my foot in the door at essence which was such an incredible opportunity I had the I had the opportunity to go to New York and Paris fashion week 4 times a year throughout like the beginning few years of my career which was really incredible and it really set the stage for me understanding like high-level trends and how that.

03:44.93
Jessica Bosman
Kind of translates to the mass market and really just gained an appreciation for for design and and fashion and I am now in Vancouver and I've worked with mec and now at Herschel so a little bit more in that vertical vertically integrated space where. Um, I'm helping define the assortments and bringing them to life. Um, not really I still have a sewing machine but I haven't touched it in a while.

04:08.90
mike_flywheel
That's super cool. Do you still sew.

04:17.78
mike_flywheel
That's so old news now I guess is a really bad note.

04:21.53
Jessica Bosman
It's really a bit of a lost art because you know the fashion industry especially with fast fashion sewing your own items unless you're doing like very high quality work with really high quality fabrics. It's much more expensive actually in time consuming to do your own manufacturing. Um, but yeah I feel like we actually struck a really nice balance in that theme with double and but yeah I haven't I haven't done anything for myself in a bit.

04:48.97
mike_flywheel
I'm excited to learn So you're not sewing everything that we haven't even told people what double is but theoretically, there's going to be some aspect of sewing and so you're not sewing this all yourself.

04:58.57
Jessica Bosman
And now it has been a thought that we've had that we could we could take it all. Um and house the 2 of us. But I'm glad we we didn't go that route.

05:05.70
mike_flywheel
Okay, we'll find out why Brent how about yourself so marketing by background is that sort of so where you started and and you know you were saying cpg very different obviously in the fashion industry and what kind of led you there.

05:18.34
Bryn
Yeah, so I actually opposite to Jess in my grade 10 career class. We got to see or hear from some pretty interesting people and one of them was a product manager for this toy that was sold in urban outfitters and. You know, similar to Jess when you're that age. You don't understand the jobs that exist in the world and I thought that was so cool that you could like take an idea and bring it into market and then people would buy it. Um and I was taking a psychology course at the time that I really loved. And um, found you know that ivy business school had this dual degree program where you could take you could get ° in 5 years So um, at age 15 I kind of charted out the next ten years and ended up doing that so I I did psychology through western and then a business degree through ivy and that was kind of a. Ah, natural marriage of 2 things for for marketing. Um I have a lot of sustainability interests and so for me when I was applying to jobs as a marketer, especially right? You're driving consumption and so it was important to me that I found a company that had values that aligned with. Consumption in a way that was you know somewhat environmentally friendly and and good for people as well. So Unilever was an obvious fit for me and met them through the ib marketing summit so similar to Jess those those school um networking events really do help.

06:42.50
Bryn
And then it's been a great training ground. Um, we always say that brand management is like being a Ceo of a company. So um, you know you get to touch all aspects of the business and you have that full end-to-end um, understanding and the strategic mindset. So yeah I've spent my whole career there and I'm very lucky to have had that.

06:59.57
mike_flywheel
That's super cool now did either of you during those experiences because I didn't pick it up naturally but were either of you ever thinking you would be Entrepreneurs. You would start your own business. It sounds like you had things that you wanted to go do but did you ever think you were gonna go do them. For yourself in some way.

07:15.66
Jessica Bosman
I think so like Brin and I came up with the initial concept of double in our last year of university and ever since then we had the intention of launching the brand. It was just a little bit of. First going into the corporate world gaining some experience and I think we did learn a lot of valuable lessons when it came to management and you know work ethic and just understanding those industries like we have a very complementary skill set within fashion and marketing and. How that's really helped bring the brand to life from both a product standpoint and a like brand speak perspective. So I think those experiences were really valuable. Um, and yeah I think we always knew it was going to happen as just a matter of when.

08:03.80
mike_flywheel
That's cool Now. Did you know that was going to happen at that tail end of University or like when you were kind of thinking career choices before even entering University was like entrepreneurship a thing did you have entrepreneur role models or did that kind of evolve and and. That Spark did that sort of happen through school or was the idea of double the actual spark.

08:25.40
Bryn
And both of our dads are entrepreneurs and neither of them went to business school. They both have have you know specific skillets that they've then turned into Jobs. So I feel like there's a bit of of that in our blood and then um. I Think we both wanted to get some experience like corporate training ground kind of experience. But you know we're both really creative people and and have you know?? Ah a big drive to make an impact and so I think it was probably always a natural next step eventually.

08:43.60
mike_flywheel
Yeah.

08:58.46
Bryn
Um, but I don't think either of us really thought of that as a potential for immediately after school.

09:05.70
mike_flywheel
Got it and so you met at ah at a networking event but you really became friends on this trip to New York um trip to New York well sorry in in class in class. Sorry so you met in class you went on a trip to New York

09:11.39
Bryn
Um, we met in class Sir we met and we met in class. Yeah.

09:22.74
mike_flywheel
That's where you sort of got you know became closer friends is that in any way shape or form related to how double was born around that trip to New York or is that just a moment of kind of building your friendship and and learning more about each other.

09:36.53
Bryn
I Think I think you could you could try to build some parallels there because the trip was to a women's um, leadership conference and doubles all all about empowering women to be themselves in the best versions of themselves and so. I Think you could draw parallels there between what we were passionate about and what we built.

09:57.76
Jessica Bosman
Um, yeah, no I'm just going to agree. Yeah.

09:57.81
mike_flywheel
Cool. So then he came back? Oh sorry, go ahead Jess so so you came back? Um, maybe let's start with the the name double. We haven't talked about what you are both up to yet or what double does. So though giving all of it away. Um is there like a story around how you got to the name double was it like whiteboarding session. Did you you know get someone to make this name up for you was it instantly something you knew how did that sort of. Ah, evolve and then we'll start to talk about what double does and even how you got there.

10:35.66
Bryn
Yeah I mean it was definitely an evolution. So the first version of the name was eliah and co um and the idea there I think was a combination of we tried to make it quite feminine. So like a bit of the tiffany and co and picking a you know feminine sounding name and then as we. Ah, you know as the years went by and we we came we circled back to the idea we wanted to come up with ah maybe a cooler name especially because we were going to be a lot more tech enabled and so then the new name we came up with was base and with the idea of like yeah like.

11:07.32
mike_flywheel
Like B a S E okay.

11:12.28
Bryn
Base layers foundational layers and we wanted a name that was really easy to remember you know like Apple um, and then base wasn't really sitting well with us. We couldn't really see the legs there and double came to us as we thought about like the role of women and how there's this. Beautiful duality and womanhood of being soft and strong There's so many that you can find as you dig in and our product which I won't give away yet is is meant to be like a double skin and so there is a nice kind of and natural way that that came to be and we thought to be cool and tech. We should cut off the e. And so it's just spelled d o u l.

11:52.50
mike_flywheel
I guess that has some perks when looking for a web domain. It probably has some challenges when people spell it because they might make the error I made when sending this invite one had double spelt and I guess we'll spell it for everyone. It's Doubl. There's no e. Yeah, the e you're doing it wrong and it is. It's all capitals too right? is that sort of like the brand look It's always in caps got it. So maybe now is a perfect time to dive in because I know I'm holding back so many questions I I admittedly know very little about this space.

12:13.85
Bryn
Exactly yep.

12:27.52
mike_flywheel
So I'm going to be super vulnerable. Ask probably a lot of questions that might seem super obvious to some of our listeners but super unobvious to others. But we're going to pass it over and do what we do? best here on the pitch please podcast and ask 1 of you for your pitch. Please.

12:42.16
Jessica Bosman
Yeah, happy to so double is the very first made to measure bra bot completely online so we are tech enabled using a 3 d image technology that is just through your iphone. So all you need is your smartphone and it takes. About 1 minute and you wear tight black clothing and basically it captures your measurements and then that gets spit out onto our back end where we take a subset of your body measurements to alter your bra to be the perfect fit. And then that gets cut and sewn and shipped from London Ontario where we manufacture locally. But our our main ethos is that we are trying to bring the bra into the twenty first century so in the past there's only been 2 measurements that have been taken the bust and under bust. Sizing system has been developed over a hundred years ago and it has never been innovated on and it only serves a subset of women who fall into these predetermined buckets and I'm sure you know with your wife, you've seen her take her broth off at the end of the day and every woman can relate to that and it's. You know bras aren't comfortable but they do serve a functional societal purpose and they need you know women need support when they're leaving their house and but we did really see during the pandemic that women didn't want to be wearing their bras any longer and they were moving to brawlets or not wearing a bra or sports bras. But now we're kind of we're coming back into the office we're going.

14:16.41
Jessica Bosman
Back outside and we bren and I just feel that women deserve the same innovation and same comfort that we've seen in other spaces and even what that we've seen in men's underwear through like socks and Eegis. For example, So yeah, it's kind of this. We're we're making. Bras size list and we're we're serving women who fall in the extremities or fall into those unusual ratios of maybe they have larger bus and smaller Underbus or vice versa. And yeah, that's that's the.

14:51.79
mike_flywheel
So many questions I probably don't even know all the questions I'm going to need to ask? Um, but I guess as part of that now your roles at at Double Um, maybe from the experiences we've talked about of each you maybe naturally talks about the roles you fit in as co-founders.

14:52.23
Jessica Bosman
Touch.

15:08.25
mike_flywheel
But when we think about this. What are your sort of roles as cofounders. You're both cofounders but do you lean to one area of the business versus the other and in terms of your roles.

15:18.45
Jessica Bosman
Oh.

15:19.21
mike_flywheel
I Think we've lost your audio brin.

15:22.50
Bryn
And sorry um, when we first heard the business for the first two years we did everything together and when I say everything I mean literally everything like we would write emails together. We were.

15:31.93
Jessica Bosman
Of each had.

15:35.28
Bryn
Um, like every decision we made together and then as you know time went on and we needed to you know there is so much work to do we. We needed to separate it out so Jess takes on more of the like operational side of the business. So she manages production factory works with the designers and then also does social media. And then im manage more on this on the marketing side so more' in the cmo role. So doing our go-tomarket strategy and some other like ah fundraising stuff that we're doing now. Um, yeah.

16:08.95
mike_flywheel
Cool. So let's go back to the beginning of double. Um, how did this get started was it a pain point was it just brainstorming one day like what was the sort of.

16:24.18
mike_flywheel
Pivotal moment when both of you decided as friends you're like this is a problem. We'd like to go solve and innovate against what was sort of the catalyst for that.

16:31.28
Jessica Bosman
Yeah, so we were looking at industries that hadn't had any innovation in them in many years and also it was a personal pain point that we had experienced for ourselves and we've talked to so many women over the past like many years and. Every single woman has something whether it's gaping cups whether it's straps falling off whether it's your underwear wire cutting into it's it's honestly endless and um, we were really intrigued by the point of confidence as well because your physical comfort translates very much into. The way that you hold yourself and portray yourself and the confidence that you bring to the table. So as the 2 of us are women in business. We really want to encourage women to lean in and speak up and be put into leadership positions and we we don't want physical discomfort to ever be the reason that. Ah, woman isn't moving forward.

17:27.47
Bryn
Yeah, like whether or not you've worn a bra before you've probably experienced discomfort right? Whether that's underwear that's not fitting properly or shoes that are uncomfortable or wearing a suit on a hot day right? and it it just it. It gets into everything it gets into your mindset. It gets into. Um, you know the length of time you want to spend doing something and and to removing that physical discomfort test was really important.

17:50.19
mike_flywheel
So I'm going to want to learn a bit more about that. But before we do maybe help teach myself and and our audience listening a little bit about this industry so you know you were talking about an area that hasn't been innovated in a long time. So what does the industry look like there's there's obviously giants in this space. Um, but it may be no giants in the custom sort of approach that you're taking so teach us a little bit about the industry and what sort of the standard things look like and where the gaps are today.

18:17.88
Jessica Bosman
Yeah, great question. So obviously the industry is like 50% of the population. So it is huge. The big players like Victoria's secret for example we've seen a huge shift from this kind of like over sexualization Victoria's secret also being started by a man having you know the iconic fashion show and it. Speaking into the way women perceive their bodies et cetera and then this big shift towards body positivity and size inclusivity which has led to a lot of the emerging brands that we're now seeing so there's some really great other players on the scene such as third love and cup and you know they're. They're bringing size inclusivity to the the table and they're using more comfortable materials. Whatever it may be and then there is a little bit of that custom you know those custom people in the space. However, no one has ever done it odd like. In a way that's scalable. So what's unique about us is that we use automated digital measurements to automatically alter the pattern whereas right now people in the customs space are still having you come in for a fitting you're being measured multiple times and these bras are typically costing. Upwards of four hundred and fifty dollars

19:33.11
mike_flywheel
Wow. So the solution you have um I don't want to talk pricing now but is more akin to a regular bra pricing but delivered at scale fully digital like you have no storefront today other than a digital storefront. Super cool. Um.

19:45.18
Jessica Bosman
Correct.

19:49.58
mike_flywheel
And so I think we've talked about it a little bit and I love Brin How you were giving some examples to make it super relatable to all users but like whether it's discomfort just not feeling comfortable in what you're wearing when you're kind of going out and trying to be your best Um, talk to me a little bit about this this problem. Um, and how. Many people this problem affects is it 100% of people in some regard I Assume there's like hey these are made generally like undergarments are made in a standard hey there's 3 different 4 different 5 Whatever different sizes and if you're not exactly that you're going to be on the fringes. So There's probably. Some people that things work for but talk to me a little bit about that and how big this problem actually is and what what are the sort of key elements of the problem that you're addressing.

20:33.47
Bryn
Yeah, so latest studies have shown about 70% of women are uncomfortable in their bras and you know if you're out of the house chances are you're wearing a bra and if you're out of the house every day chances are you're you're wearing a bra every day so being uncomfortable. You know every day that. That many people is ah is a huge problem. It's most potently a problem for people who fall on like you said the fringes so people who either have non-standard ratios so they have a smaller rib cage but larger volume or they have smaller volume and a larger rib cage. Sometimes they can't even find their size at at regular stores because that combination doesn't exist and then for bras to offer support because they are you know trying to work against gravity. They need to the band itself needs to give you 80% of the support and it can only be two centimeters off of your body. And the broadbands go up into inch increments. So it's often hard to find like to actually get that snug fit that you need to give you the supports that you're not uncomfortable and then adding on to that. A lot of discomfort comes from underwires which are you know, non-standard sizes so we get rid of underwires completely and then molded cups which are yeah foam layer that sits sits on top of your body. That's usually not comfortable or breathable. So we've also gotten rid of that.

21:52.32
Bryn
And then on top of that. It's also the convenience of finding your size. So even if there is a size out there that exists for you. It's hard to find that whether you have to get measured by somebody in the store or buy something and then return it so daily searches for bra size in Canada is about three hundred to three thousand searches per day.

22:12.38
mike_flywheel
Wow So you taught touched on a few things there and I'm trying to Follow. So if I miss something just bring it back up because obviously not maybe not obviously I don't wear a bra So I don't know a ton about them. Um, but you talked about material differences. And the materials you're using you talked about um some elements of innovation around how I guess it's cut to fit and some elements that you don't use so like you don't use Foam. You don't use Underwires. So Maybe talk to us a little bit about. Talk about the tech element in a bit in the delivery method but just the product itself. How did you arrive at this this sounds like it's like a ton of work to figure out how to go innovate a category um like and that's why I want to spend more time on this because this isn't just like yo we sketched it up and it was done like you actually. Took a bunch of things that are standardized and changed how you were going to approach the problem. What did that look like.

23:09.57
Jessica Bosman
It was honestly such a challenge. Um I don't think we knew exactly what we were getting ourselves into when we started and despite you know my background being in fashion and having been a part of product development before bras are just in. Like we think they are the most challenging piece of clothing that you can make because each woman carries their volume differently. Each body is shaped differently. It's it's like this unlimited number of combinations. So when we first started we had no idea how to manufacture bra so we went on upwork we found a designer. Also didn't realize that there were such strong differentiations between developers and designers and pattern makers and like who we needed at what point in time in order to bring it to life and you know what kind of manufacturers would be interested in taking on custom work because typically you would be submitting bulk orders. Like a year in advance and that would be. You know it's kind of just like the way that operates. So yeah, back in the beginning we went through multiple iterations where we yeah hired somebody to make a bra. We got that back and you know didn't fit at all. It was like a boo hammock and we we started to. Quickly learn all of the different elements about sourcing the right fabrics that offer the right tension which offer them the right support and then ensuring that the design is um, you know supporting that in its.

24:41.61
Jessica Bosman
Its architectural structure in a sense and then when we were working on the algorithm like what are the points that are most important to alter for the perfect bit but also not taking too much into consideration because we don't want to overcomplicate things in a process that's already super complicated. So it's. Been basically 3 years of research and development and prototyping and we're very very close to the end now. Um, but it was a very long journey.

25:08.60
mike_flywheel
Yeah, so so you're saying that like over the last two or three years a lot of that journey was just actually prototyping through all the different iterations. How is like you know what problem you want to solve and we'll talk about the tech in a bit. But even just the material and the manufacturing the output even if you had everybody's custom dimensions. You need to figure out how to go do that at scale. So what are the variables you want to change because I'm sure you can't change 100% of every variable that exists. You have to figure out the most important ones and then the materials and the the styling the cut I don't know all those elements had to be like iterated on and that process has taken some years um at any point in that three years where you almost like you were were out. This is way too hard right.

25:57.33
Bryn
I think the benefit of having a co-founder is that when you feel like it's too hard and you don't want to go on any longer the other person lifts you up and I feel like that's been so true for us like whenever i'm. Stress and I'm like it's not going to work. Jess is like no no, no, it's like we've got this. It's going to be great and then vice versa. We seem to be really lucky that we always are on like we're either always on the up side or we're on opposite sides or never both low at the same point. Um, so I think that's been been really helpful and I think it's also important just to think of it as like one foot in front of the other right not looking too far into the future. You just make little changes. You know you iterate as you go I know you might you know on your Linkedin when you're creeping you. We saw that. That you believe that you need to get to 70 % not 100% so trying to have that mindset and not be perfectionist and know that we can iterate as we get feedback but just getting bras on bodies for us is is what the goal is right now.

26:54.66
Jessica Bosman
I think to add on to that too. We still believe in this product and we so believe in the viability and the need for it that it's just we. We know it's possible. We know it's a necessity. It's just a matter of getting it. You know executed. And I'm also on Brin's point um I think yeah learning to put one foot in from the other is just like this integral lesson that you need to learn as an entrepreneur and we're both future planners like Brin's spoke to her tenure plan when she's a university and I think that's been something that we've had to really check ourselves and you know we work. On the next critical step and we don't look too much ahead because it is overwhelming when you do that. But you know the most I think the number 1 reason entrepreneurs fail is because they give up so as long as you're consistent and you're just doing baby step like after baby step then. You'll you'll figure it out eventually.

27:50.33
mike_flywheel
Patience optimism a strong co-founder all important ingredients and continuing to to persist for something that's that hard and that long and it sounds like you really believe in what you're trying to solve for and I think that's a key point if you're not passionate about it to your to your point Jess I think.

27:58.55
Jessica Bosman
About you.

28:08.83
mike_flywheel
A lot of startups fail because they sort of just give up. It got hard and they gave up and so the the more you believe in what you're doing and if there's more than one of you. You can kind of both push through those tough times. Um, so maybe talk to us a little bit about where you're at in this journey. So you said couple years of development. Um, do you have a working prototype are you available for sale and then after that I I want to talk about the the how this this works but I want to see where you guys are at in this cycle since it sounds like it was a heck of a journey.

28:43.92
Jessica Bosman
Yeah, um, so we did a soft launch back in March just for a limited run of 25 bras just because we wanted to ensure from a manufacturing and logistics standpoint that we were able to get the bras out start. Getting some reviews ensuring that it really was working for multiple body types. Um, we are working on delivering those still which we are a little bit late on. However, we do have final approved prototypes which is really great and we're just finalizing our beta testing. To ensure that we're really happy with the quality of those 25 bras that go out and then we are looking to hard launch shortly after that.

29:25.38
mike_flywheel
That's amazing and so are those friends family. Are they people that signed up through some different ah means like did you create your this is effectively going to be your like feedback loop right for your first iteration or you've maybe had some feedback loops along the way.

29:36.16
Bryn
Yeah, we did. The soft launch was completely organic so it was mostly in our networks. Um, well everybody was in our network and the accommination of friends family coworkers people whose paths we've crossed and we are so grateful for every single one like I know as a consumer when you shop from a small business and. You know the business owner says. Thank you It's so important like as a small business owner like each of those customers. You're so excited about and I remember when Jess and I did that soft launch. You know our expectations I think were naively high and we hit the launch button we were like waiting and waiting and waiting. Um, and then when that first sale came in it was just like the best feeling in the world and it was one of my good friends Taylor um, who who bought the bra and then it was just like every time a new you know you get that email that somebody else has ordered and it's you know you just feel the love a lot which is great.

30:31.90
mike_flywheel
That's actually a really important point. Um, there was ah a founder that I was talking to a few weeks back and I asked him what one of his most memorable moments was in his journey of his startup and he said it was the first. Check and the first check was like $60 and he said he he went out with the team they spent like $400 on drinks to celebrate this $60 check, but he said the most important reason for that was that it was validation that the thing that they'd been working on for so long. So hard.

30:52.79
Jessica Bosman

31:06.11
mike_flywheel
People actually wanted it and wanted to pay for and saw value as well and so it's really Cool. So those 25 that was my next question those 25 people paid for this. Be part of this this Alpha or Beta test in this first launch which is which is super cool now. How? Um, how did they get measured. So You know we talked about the fact that you don't have a brick and mortar store and you don't go. You know, have them come to you and you do a whole bunch of Measurements. So What does that piece look like I think this talks to like the core of this tech enabled aspect but is that something you you enabled for these 25 people and what did what does that look like.

31:40.91
Jessica Bosman
Yeah, it's a really simple process. So Basically you would go onto the website or via social Channel you would make your purchase and then you'd be sent an email with a link to an app or kind of a scannable qr code which then has you download an app. Is through technology that we license and then it walks you through this very simple process. You just need to have a blank wall behind you and you put on some type fitting black Clothing. You prop up your phone on a chair. It takes about a minute you kind of just hold your body in a certain position and then you turn to the side. It's completely private. Um, that is something that we get asked a lot. We have no photos that are stored nothing.. It's just an extraction of measurements and then that gets automatically sent to our internal software system where we have our pattern and then through a like made to measure. Software it automatically alters based on an algorithm that we created that gets spit out and then sewn and shipped. So. It's a completely automated process. Super Easy. You can do from the comfort of your home, Especially you know if you're a busy person. You're not wanting to go out to the store and. Also women typically hate Brasha. We hear that all the time It's like their least favorite item to shop for. So You know we've made it easy. We've made it comfortable and it takes yeah probably 5 minutes from start to finish fully.

33:08.83
mike_flywheel
Wow. And so just with the camera Scan it gets every measurement in the exactness and needs. There's no other like I don't need a measuring tape or any of that I Just scan it with a phone any phone or I assume phones with like at least a good enough camera I guess.

33:21.88
Bryn
I yeah, it can be Android or iphone and there's no really limitations on I mean it can't be the first iphone but you know and yeah, definitely no blackberries.

33:29.40
Jessica Bosman
I said.

33:31.55
mike_flywheel
Yeah I don't think those a battery if anything the battery life definitely means you're not using a first iphone anymore. So okay, okay, we're past that point too I don't think anyone uses bbi anymore anyway, um, okay, and so maybe a silly question. Do you wear a.

33:38.55
Jessica Bosman
Yeah, have it.

33:43.92
Bryn
Um.

33:49.19
mike_flywheel
Bra. Well you take this picture. It's like hey find your most ideal fitting bra and then do this photo or do you do it in black fitted clothing with no bra because I'm trying to figure out I Guess how the camera identifies where you want support I don't know if I'm saying these things right? but.

34:03.29
Bryn
Yeah, yeah, So and I I think the first clarification point is that we we get all of the raw measurements and then we decide how that translates into a pattern. So the app that we use isn't smart enough to to go exactly from like. Body data to Pattern. That's the algorithm engine that we've built Um, but in terms of what to wear. Definitely if you have a larger Chest. We recommend wearing a bra that has underwire that's unlined Ideally, just so that we can make sure that.

34:24.93
mike_flywheel
Ah, okay.

34:37.30
Bryn
You know we can get an accurate under bust measurement that everything's lifted in the right spot. So we can have a like true estimate. Um and those are some of the things that we're working on right like any any machine learning you need is you know you know you need inputs to get to get the best output So we'll ah we'll iterate that as we go but that's.

34:45.44
Jessica Bosman
I remember.

34:49.40
mike_flywheel
Yeah.

34:55.48
mike_flywheel
Got it so it actually you put in your general bra measurements and then you include this Scan Oh so you just do the Scan and then your algorithm figures out the rest from there.

34:55.72
Bryn
That's what we recommend right now.

35:03.48
Jessica Bosman
Yeah, it's just listening.

35:07.84
Bryn
Yeah, like we don't care about bra sizes at all like they can go out the window. We don't care for them. They can disappear. We just want to know who like your measurements the bras fitted to you? Um, we we meant you know we say. We say in our in our email to to those people who've ordered that measuring yourself can be uncomfortable right? Not everybody likes likes that process but the beauty of our product is that there is no. Boxes that we're putting you in right? like there's none of that stigma between us a size small versus a size large or ah, a 6 versus a 2 and so it's just you like you are the Muse. You are what we build around and so I think there's ah also a lot of empowerment. And that that we were taking you as you are and then we're making something just for you.

35:56.35
mike_flywheel
That's cool where where so obviously Youof launched where will this be available because it sounds like it's highly scalable and digital but will you have limitations on where it's going to be available when you launch and I'm not going to put you on the spot exact for a date but maybe as a. 3 to six month window when you kind of expect that you know this will be available to to more people. Yeah.

36:16.88
Jessica Bosman
Yeah, we're hoping it will be available in the next few months probably the fall at the latest and it will be available to anyone in Canada and then shortly thereafter also open to the us and it's online. So just through our our website.

36:17.12
Bryn
Yes.

36:34.96
mike_flywheel
Cool and we'll reference it again later as well. But your website is with no E Um, interesting. So with.

36:37.31
Jessica Bosman
double.ca with no e yeah.

36:50.51
mike_flywheel
As you've gone through this I know we've talked about some pieces of this What would you say has been maybe the the hardest part um of the journey together in this and it could be the product. It could be. Innovation. It could be just like navigating it alongside. You know, busy careers because obviously like you you don't even have like you've just started to launch the product right? So unless you had 3 years where you're kind of just working on just this I assume you're probably doing some other things as well and that can be busy, but what's been like the hardest part for you. Both. And it could be something different for each of you.

37:25.89
Jessica Bosman
I think the product and manufacturing has been a really large struggle for us and you know it gets to the point where it's frustrating because you just want to be able to launch the product and you want to start getting that iterative feedback and you want you want market validation too like it gets scary sometimes when. You're going. You're iterating and you're iterating nothing. It's just not working because then yeah, you have those questions of like is this possible like are we are we chasing after a business idea that isn't even viable. So I think that has been the biggest struggle for sure and until recently we've now with. Come to the point where we have approval which is really exciting. But yeah, it's been basically 3 years of chasing after that approved final product.

38:14.43
Bryn
And yeah, and that that would have been my exact answer too that that just gave and I'd say a secondary one is what you mentioned Mike where we have been building this on the side of our full-time jobs and that you know comes with its own challenges. Um. We you know took advantage of the downtime that we had during all of the lockdowns to do that so that was kind of serendipitous timing and then I also had the great opportunity through my employer at Unilever. Um to take some time off to join the western accelerator through western university so I had four months of working full time and. You know they call it an accelerator for a reason like having that time to really think things through and um work on yeah work on accelerating the business that the full time hours you know is is ah is so important.

39:03.99
mike_flywheel
That's amazing. That's amazing. They even give that type of an opportunity because I think it's like you can bring that passion back to to your workplace as well and the skills you probably learned in that four months are probably massively beneficial to to what you're doing now at Unilever. Um. Was the and notice neither of you mentioned this part but was figuring out how you were gonna produce this like we talked about the design but the actual production you said it's produced in Canada is was that hard to figure out or maybe Jess with your background that was like the easiest part but made in Canada the materials here the stitching the distribution is that like. Something that was like hard to figure out and.

39:40.74
Jessica Bosman
Yeah I think this comes back to putting one foot in front of the other. So initially we did have an individual sewer an individual pattern maker and we very much did it like ad hoc through a bit of but like a wework space and then. Bren found a manufacturer in London Ontario during the accelerated program which was very well suited to us and their female found it and they were really excited about our idea which was great because we had spoken to a few different manufacturers and not everyone is interested in a working with a startup b working with meat to measure. And see going through a bit of this iterative iterative prototyping. Especially um, we we typically need a very advanced seamstress on the project because it is very complicated and quality. Control is extremely important to us so we do need a lot of eyes on the product and it takes. A little bit longer than your average clothing item. So yeah.

40:37.67
Bryn
And our I was just getting our original idea was to do like a decentralized network of home sowers and so kind of follow an uber model and have people you know, put their hands up that they have a sewing machine at home and they would get orders in and they'd sew them and ship them.

40:45.44
mike_flywheel
Okay.

40:56.67
Bryn
Um, but we realized quite quickly that quality control would be a massive issue so we still have heart for an idea of that kind but we turn that into kind of the localism um aspect instead.

41:07.44
mike_flywheel
Got it and so they at the end of the day then are they all hand stitched locally from 1 source or there's like part production from machine and some hand stitching like how does that work.

41:18.44
Jessica Bosman
Yeah, so they they automate or you know there as efficient as possible in the areas that they can be so there's lots of preprogramming that you can do on sewing machines for a certain areas if there's consistency in the type of stitch or the item like the 2 pattern pieces coming together things like that. But there is a lot of manual labor involved. It's going sort.

41:41.87
Bryn
But the and um I think the biggest machine element is the cutting So instead of hand cut. It's machine cut.

41:48.90
mike_flywheel
Got it got it. So the machine cutting helps help speed a lot of that up. Um, what's been. You know we talked about challenging parts. And being that journey and keeping one foot in front of the other What's what's been like the most memorable or exciting part that that you've sort of learned on this 3 hree-year journey.

42:14.59
Jessica Bosman
Oh That's a hard question. Um I think it's been really interesting with both us having business backgrounds and having a good amount of corporate experience. There's so much that you don't know and you don't realize you don't know it until you're doing it like for example. We do all aspects of the business which include ah hr and accounting and keeping up with our financial statements and investor pitch decks and the manufacturing and the hiring and you know you you realize how specific and um, you know a little bit pigeonful. Your own career becomes until you start broadening and you think you know how all of these systems work and you really have no idea until you're doing them So That's been an interesting learning piece I would say.

43:04.71
Bryn
and and 8

43:06.64
mike_flywheel
It's funny that you say that one of the one of the founders co-founders of of good lawyer I had on a while back and he said the most important skill in a startup is the skill to be a great generalist because if you don't have the willingness to just go figure things out. You're done like you just don't have the advantage or luxury of having a specialist for every single function and I think many people that are in organizations the second year ah in an organization over five hundred or a thousand people like you get specialized pretty quick even if you don't think you're specialized and so you get very, it's a. Quick slippery slope of like oh that's not something I know and you kind of like that's someone else's area and then working in working for or being a part of a startup teaches you to just like roll up your sleeves and it's like the most important skill and it it probably is helping both of you more than you know or you may be already do know.

44:00.86
Jessica Bosman
Yeah, you know and it's exciting right? Like what has been so amazing about the business is that when you work when you're working towards an idea that you're passionate about everything's fun like obviously there's highs and lows. But.

44:02.36
mike_flywheel
And your role is now where you're like I I can figure that out I'll take that on. Um.

44:17.70
Jessica Bosman
It always feels like a treat to be working on the business and especially having it currently being mornings and evenings and weekends it feels like there's a bit of an excitement around it where it's like like how amazing is is it that I get to work on this incredible project that could you know change the world one day.

44:33.63
mike_flywheel
For sure and yourself bread.

44:36.35
Bryn
I yeah as yeah Asrena say basically what you said Mike where it's based like that you have to solve your ah all your problems yourself and um and also sometimes you create your own problems right? So Jess and I were having a photo shoot in March and we.

44:53.73
Bryn
Had done this the sample sewing through through the facility that Jess had mentioned and Jess was flying to toronto for the photo shoot and we somehow neither of us thought for Jess to bring the bras and said we had them shippedrano and they were supposed to arrive Thursday end of day and the photo shoot started Friday morning. And Lo and behold. They did not get delivered Thursday end of day. So we you know called canada post they were super lovely and helpful. But we were you know so stressed and it was such an avoidable problem so we had to call the warehouse at five zero in the morning to try to make sure that it got on the like first mail truck out. And I live in downtown toronto so we were hoping that they would deliver you know to to the core First. Um and so I so I went to the photo shoot started setting up all the models and the photographer and Jess was waiting just in the lobby for the male person to arrive and you can finish this story Jess because you were there.

45:46.46
Jessica Bosman
Yeah, it was really lucky. It was I think the first shoot we had it starting at 9 but ah like half an hour for setup and it was like 159 and I saw a male woman come into the building and I'm like. Following her down the hallway I'm like I'm looking sorry like I'm looking for this like really important package like do you happen to have it. It's like a small like bubble mailer and then she's like going through all of her bags and she has it and then we're like jumping up and down end jeering and then I like book it to the photo shoot. Um, but yeah, it was really stressful. We almost had a photo shoot with no product.

46:20.52
mike_flywheel
Yeah, like it's good that you can laugh about this now. But at that moment you were losing it. Ah.

46:23.21
Jessica Bosman
Yeah, and it was yeah it felt so ridiculous because I was literally going on a plane from bank of Ver Toronto so I could have been like holding the broad scene her time. Yeah.

46:33.35
mike_flywheel
I Mean good lesson to learn early now you probably just travel with the bras and yeah, either are um as we kind of get to the tail end here. You've both kind of described a bunch of amazing learning moments in your journey.

46:41.59
Bryn
Yeah.

46:42.40
Jessica Bosman
Forship earlier. Yeah.

46:53.18
mike_flywheel
Um, to to build ah a company from the ground up and innovate an area that's seriously been under innovated in for a very long time. Is there any advice that you'd share for other people whether they're going to go start this alone or with another cofounder or that are working somewhere and you know I think sometimes as the courage like. Is my employer going to be worried about this but you know the thing you talked about as well was sometimes it's it's about this thing that some people have a passion for photography. Some people have a passion for painting and art at the end of the day this is your passion that you spend time and energy on outside of work that brings you energy? um. But is there advice that you would share with people listening that are kind of in a similar position or a different position but thinking of starting a business.

47:37.37
Jessica Bosman
Yeah I think that element of passion is extremely important like obviously it is a business and you do hope to be financially successful. However I think if the reason you're getting into business is for financial success then you're already setting yourself up for failure Because. There are so many hard points and there is a lot of yeah like scrappiness involved and I think if you're not doing it because you're passionate about the idea and you love working on it and you're okay with it maybe taking some time then it likely you know won't be Successful. So I Do think it's really important that you think of. An idea that you're really passionate about and something that you're willing to put kind of the time and effort behind.

48:23.31
Bryn
Yeah, and and I likewise I think like there will never be a good time right? So It's just better to start sooner rather than later and I think um, it's also easy to look to other people you know and. And try to model yourself after them or their journey and there is no onesize fits all approach. So. It's best just to do what works for you and put that foot in front of the other.

48:51.90
mike_flywheel
That's I don't know if you saw the irony in that statement. But that's almost too perfect for double and how we close this off that there is not just one size that fits all um brin justs. Thanks a lot for for joining today if people want to find out more or you know what are the the. Steps people can take like are you hiring? Do you just want people to sign up hey go check out your website. We're gonna be shipping soon like what's sort of where you would tell people to go to find out more excitement's jumping out of the out of the call I can hear it.

49:16.12
Bryn
Yeah, so they. But yeah, so and people can sign up on our website so wwwwww.doubledot ca with no e and to be alerted to when we do do a full launch.

49:16.24
Jessica Bosman
Um, yeah, yeah, but so.

49:35.71
Bryn
And also to hear more about what's going on behind the scenes and follow along with our journey and then we also have ah Instagram Facebook tiktok and lots of great stuff there around broads how to find your fit and you know relatable things. Um, and so yeah, you can follow us along that way and then also if you are somebody who's listening who doesn't wear a bra you know sending this information to somebody who does and would benefit from it. And if you are someone that wears a brawn you have pain points and you want to share those. You can always send us an email at Hello@doubledot Ca and we'd love to hear from them.

50:09.89
Jessica Bosman
And just quick pointer Tiktok on our Instagram is at my double.

50:15.20
mike_flywheel
Okay, and we'll link. We'll link all those in the show notes anyway. So my double for Instagram and Tiktok double dot ca for web and all the other properties just double with no e easy enough I think um.

50:26.90
Jessica Bosman
Yes, for.

50:32.88
mike_flywheel
Brin Jess thank you so much for joining today now. They're at the end of this, you've completed your first podcast together. Hopefully you had a lot of fun for everyone that listened along that was their first podcast. They think they had an amazing time. They they had all the answers ready to go. We had a great conversation.

50:40.61
Jessica Bosman
And ah.

50:50.63
mike_flywheel
Um, but Jess Bren thank you again for joining today. Everybody else who who listened along. Thank you again for listening in to the pitch please podcast and we will catch you on the next episode.

51:00.12
Jessica Bosman
Thanks Mike.

51:01.57
Bryn
Thanks Mike.