Pitch Please

00:04.97
mike_flywheel
What's up everybody. It's Mike we're back here on the pitch please podcast and today we've got Joel from doormat they're an online real estate lawyer making it simple for canadians to complete their real estate transactions into tech first way I'm excited to learn more. It sounds like they're really disrupting things. But before we dive into too much. Let's get a little bit of an introduction about yourself. Joel.

00:27.10
Joel
Yeah, well thanks for having me on Mike Really happy to be here. Um, and for me I am the Ceo or excuse me C O and co-founder of doormat have been with the company for about a year and a half now pretty much since I I jumped on. And we launched in March of this year in terms of my background I have an undergrad and grad degree in business at mcmaster and out of that I went and worked in rbc in a rotational program. Um. Ultimately left Rbc to run my own business in the cpg space. Um, and then it was from that business that I ended up leaving to join doormat. So that's kind of my my fast run through of of my background and my experience.

01:18.50
mike_flywheel
That's awesome. Well I want to learn a little bit more I know the background here as we went to school together. So I know a little bit of the timelines involved here and I'm I'm curious to like discuss some of that with you too? Um, but I think from your time at Rbc you know, a lot of the the jobs you're doing there tell me a little bit about those roles.

01:26.61
Joel
Um.

01:35.67
mike_flywheel
And that first jump that you made into your first startup and then we'll we'll talk about doormat after but I think like what were the timelines of that was your first startup related to something you're doing at Rbc or completely different like what. You know you went right from school to rvc tell us about the roles there and and what that for that first jump off sort of was about yeah.

01:55.91
Joel
For sure and I actually skipped ah a small blip on the radar after after undergrad I went and worked for a mutual fund company I was pretty dead set on going into the the finance space and and going up through the sales org. Of a mutual fund company but quickly realized once I was there that that wasn't what was for me and that's what prompted me to go back to to grad school and back to mcmaster to do the co-op and Mba program. Um, and then out of that I went into the leadership rotational program at Rbc. So that allowed me to rotate through different areas of mostly the head office of the personal and commercial banking unit of the company and I did a little bit of a stint in sales as well. Um, but through that opportunity and through that program I ended up getting exposure to our technology group. And in particular our innovation groups. So I spent about 2 years at Rbc before getting pulled into that world. Um, and once I graduated out of the leadership program I actually went to the technology and operation space with an Rbc and worked in the innovation space there. Um and that was. Really, what was like my first exposure to the tech scene within Canada and toronto in particular um and and more of like the entrepreneurial spirit that we had in the city. Um, and so I think that's when I like started to catch the bug and you know i.

03:26.49
Joel
Always in my mind I thought I wasn't going to I wasn't going to stay at rbc forever. Um, that wasn't exactly what I saw myself doing for the rest of my career and and so I think through my time on the innovation team at rbc I got exposure to all these all these great companies. All these great entrepreneurs. Um. And it just started to become more and more interesting for me to step in into that scene. Um, and so I worked almost four years I think in in that space at rvc um, and towards the end of my time there I started up an online marketplace for healthy food and supplements. With a few friends and we were running that on the side of all of our day. Jobs. Um, and it started to go quite well. Ah particularly once the pandemic hit online grocers. And delivery services became a pretty hot business. So I was put into a position where I needed to either leave um, leave Rbc or or leave that that side hustle and it can do both at the same time so that was when I took the opportunity to to leap full time. Um, into that business and you know take away the safety net that I had with rvc.

04:41.99
mike_flywheel
Yeah, talk to us about that I think that's like you made it sound like it's you know a very quick decision but I'm sure it was not nor was it an easy one after you sort of went to the workforce went back to school came back.

04:48.70
Joel
Are are.

04:58.39
mike_flywheel
Making good money and had some very impactful roles at Rbc talk to us about like that discussion with yourself and your co-founders to make that jump. What were some of the. Easiest parts in your mind and some of the most challenging things or elements that you are weighing out when when you were deciding if this is what you were going to go do.

05:20.90
Joel
Yeah I mean I'd say the first conversation that I needed to have before even my co-founders was with my wife and deciding how we could handle it um, financially lifestyle wise we had of course gotten used to a certain. Um. Ah, certain lifestyle and and taking a step into entrepreneurship full time was obviously going to impact that so you're right? It wasn't you know a snap decision that was made it was probably like ah close to a year of conversations with my wife and thinking about it. Um. And also saving up that whole time. Ah so we planned for worst case scenario financially so I was fortunate to to have my wife working full time as well. But I also saved a significant amount over my time. Um in like that last year year and a half at Rbc. Um. Which ended up being you know the best thing that I did um because you you know jumping into the world of entrepreneurship I think you always think you're going to get Pat or you're going to get paid faster than you do um and you know that certainly wasn't the case for me. So having that cushion was huge and it was what allowed me to you know, get a really great experience in building that business running that business without having to to jump ship too early for my own personal financial reasons. So. So yeah, you're you're completely right? that it wasn't just kind of some snap decision I think it was.

06:47.69
Joel
Well- plannedned out. Um and then to your question about how I planned it with my cofounders at the time and in that business. Um, it made most sense I was the only one that jumped full time on it at that point so it made most sense for me for a number of reasons to be the one to do that. Um, and we had all agreed upon that across the 4 of us who are cofounders.

07:10.13
mike_flywheel
Interesting and it's funny. You bring up that piece around you spent probably the better part of a year saving and planning this leap and there's another guest that had a similar story and talked about that and I think one of the things that we discussed. Was that you know there's a million things for you to worry about as a founder and your own homefront and personal cash flows is not the 1 you want to be fighting the battlefront on and so you know the advice was totally There's moments to.

07:43.74
Joel
Totally.

07:49.92
mike_flywheel
Get paid. Although you know you're going to be taking a pay sacrifice. But if you can intentionally plan for that where you've you know, been thoughtful planned out a little bit of a cushion. You can't do this in all moments. It's not always easy to you know I'm saying this in the.

07:52.82
Joel
Yeah.

08:05.28
Joel
Totally um.

08:07.46
mike_flywheel
If you have the perfect way to perfectly plan out your leap um you know and you have the timeline that allows it if you can create a little bit of a cushion. Um and obviously discuss it on the home front and all other aspects of your life. This is not an area you want surprises and things will take longer than they.

08:22.79
Joel
No.

08:26.93
mike_flywheel
People most often expect.

08:27.43
Joel
Totally yeah I mean I learned a lot from that whole experience and you know at least I was prepared in the sense of like worst case scenario from a cash cushion perspective. But what I wasn't prepared for was the shock of just not having an income. So even though there is a cushion there. It's like when you're in a Salari Job you're used to you know, maybe seeing the bank account stay flat or or hopefully going up over time and socking away money into your savings. But even if you do have a great cushion. There. It's a whole different feeling seeing. That some of money just go down and seeing nothing come in and like that was so incredibly stressful. So at least I had you know a cushion there to soften the blow of you know, not seeing that income come on and or come in on like a biweekly basis.

09:23.30
mike_flywheel
Yeah I can imagine like you can only prepare for that so much mentally and then when you're loving it. It's a different experience. So now that first um, first startup I don't know if you said the name but I think it was called rise was it okay.

09:25.70
Joel
Be out.

09:35.29
Joel
Rise Market Yeah, still still around.

09:40.68
mike_flywheel
And so tell me about your transition from Rise to to doormat. What was the timing of that. What was the catalyst for that.

09:50.81
Joel
Yeah, it did. Um there was multiple catalysts to it. Um, it did have a lot to do with the financials of it from my own personal perspective. So by the time I was leaving Rise. Um I was still the only one that was full time. Um, and we weren't in a position yet to be kind of paying consistent salaries out. Um, so I think it started to weigh on me from that perspective. Um, and then I think there was just ah, different goals in terms of what I wanted to get out of my career. Um, so going into Ry's market I Thought you know felt that there was a good opportunity to to raise some money and scale it quite large across the country. Um, but it just didn't fit didn't didn't happen at the time and and I was still eager to get that experience and so um. Been thinking about you know, taking a step away from from Rise and moving on to the next thing and that's what ultimately made me available and open to ah the discussion with others.

10:59.99
mike_flywheel
Yeah note I think we talked about this when we were catching up about the types of startups that you can get involved in um and the concept of those that are I think the term I was told in a couple podcasts ago was. Like the cottage and a cottage business. Ah where you know you can be a very successful entrepreneur and make m's but not b's you can get to the the million or millions a year. Maybe even a couple hundred thousand a year more than enough for the average person to have an amazingly comfortable life. Ah, but those are generally a slower rise up, you know, focused on generating a sustainable business but not always growing at massive scale. And the ones that are the scale are like sort of they're not not always this way but a little bit more all or nothing like it's a make or break and you go for the bees and you swing and you swing hard and so it sounds like you were going through a little bit of that which is like hey no offense to either option. Both are great options and.

11:57.25
Joel
Yeah.

12:08.50
Joel
Yeah, yeah.

12:09.70
mike_flywheel
You know at different moments in your life. You might seek one or the other. Um, but there's a real self talk. You have to have which is in this present moment am I looking for a business that could be a couple hundred thousand or millions and be a cash flow business for my life. Or am I looking for something that's going to be like massive national or international impact and it sounds like that's for this moment in time for you, you wanted the lotter you were looking for the bees type moment if you're going to kind of spend this time and energy that you planned for. In that regard. So.

12:48.96
Joel
Totally I think for me I I fully wanted I wanted to be and want to be full time on whatever business I'm running um and then also got into a position too where I I did need to be paid at least something to to be able to be full time on it. So I think that's a ah big consideration. You know there's the the ends and the bees. Ah certainly like go through your mind but for me also it was about like um the experiences that I wanted to get in my career and so part of that was raising money and going through that whole process. Um, and you know I think um. That was something that over time I started to realize was really important to me and and wanted to to have those kind of career experiences that came with raising money. Um, now mind you I would say I fall into the more conservative bucket of the the bees. In this scenario where I believe really strongly in you know, um, sound financial metrics when you're building out a business even if it's like a scale business or a Vc business which I think is starting to line up really well with like. How the current fundraising market is and and how investors are thinking and and you know not to get ahead. But I mean related to doormat I think that's why we've we've landed to to some open ears in the investment community so far.

14:16.11
mike_flywheel
That's ah, that's a great point. Um on the other elements but beyond the Ms. and the bees a little bit around what your own you know, payment needs are a little bit around the experiences that you're looking to get if you're you're spending this you know it's commitment. It's commitment of time and energy that. You know is more than most people's average job I'll go with averages but you know you want to get something out of that to learning experience. Um through that you know we'll we'll talk a little bit about doormat in a second but any advice on either you know, diving into your first startup. Ah, and and things you might have learned now that helped you inform your decision on your your second startup um or even just the process of of going through that like. I'm sure you learned a lot about having really open conversation with your founders from the previous startup as well. Any advice on any of those elements that you think is useful before we jump into doormat.

15:13.58
Joel
Yeah I think I mean I think just jump into it as soon as possible is is one of the like best pieces of advice that I could give like I didn't start anything entrepreneurial until I was in my thirty s um. And you know if I could go back and and do things differently I don't think I would have like started a business and gone all in right away but I would have been maybe running businesses on the side or having some some side some side hustles in addition to that kind of more safe cushy job that I had. Um, I Actually think you over your career have done a really good job of that you know startups and businesses. Um got experience a broad array of experience in kind of being an entrepreneur but then also having that big big corporate Job. So I I think that would be my big recommendation. Everyone is that like it doesn't have to be like acquit your job. And start a business type thing. It's like. In fact I I wouldn't recommend that I'd say like you should start a start a business and run it on the side for as long as you possibly can um see if you want to do it and if you can hack it and then if you see ah a path towards. Um, being able to sustainably run it full-time then then make that Leap. Um and then other recommendations beyond that and in time in terms of just like getting on top of it is like I think cofounders are everything so across both businesses. It was fortunate to have good cofounders.

16:47.23
Joel
Um, but different sets of cofounders and so I think it's it's making sure that your goals and values align and goals in terms of what you're looking to get out of the business. So back to our Ms. And bs conversation. If 1 cofounder is looking for the Ms. And the other cofounder is looking for the bees that could. Catastrophic even if you guys are best friends and you get along in in every other way possible. So um, that piece is really important and then I mean last piece but but just kind of piggybacking off of the cofounder piece is It's so important to have complementary skill sets. You don't want to have cofounders where at least this is my opinion. You don't want to have cofounders where you overlap in what you contribute? Um, the beauty of cofounders is that you are cheap labor from a cash perspective because you're compensated based on your ownership stake. Um, so if you're just overlapping in terms of what your contribution is then that means you have to hire. Um, the gaps that the 2 of you have where um if you do a good job of covering the basis of kind of like the key skill sets that you need in the business just financially that that sets you up for um. A lot more runway in the early days of the business

18:04.51
mike_flywheel
That's cool I like that the advice on the rounding are your skill sets is is key or at least going into it eyes I'd open that if you're gonna have overlap. It's fine.

18:12.00
Joel
Exactly Yeah, it's totally totally.

18:15.27
mike_flywheel
Fine and you might not, you might have the perfect cofounder where you know when your heads come together. You think of great things we will have to hire out the other skill sets which will cost some money. Um, cool, let's talk about doormat. Ah maybe let's you know. We're on the show called pitch please. So we'll start with your pitch but I'm going to want to hear about the name and and then a whole bunch of questions about the business. So Joel let's start with the pitch your best pitch please.

18:39.56
Joel
Absolutely so when you buy or sell a home in most parts of Canada you are required to use a real estate lawyer and that real estate lawyer helps you to close on the deal whether you're purchasing or selling. Um, we've built technology and built ah a client support platform that helps simplify and big and bring transparency to that whole property closing process also for a much lower price than you would typically get on average in the market.

19:10.64
mike_flywheel
I like it and so we'll break into a bunch of those things and maybe even discuss the industry because I think that's important context for people and and this is why it's probably home like really close to no pun intended home for a lot of.

19:21.10
Joel
Yeah, absolutely. Um.

19:26.70
mike_flywheel
People that have either gone through a real estate transaction over the last couple years which I know a lot of people did or are thinking about what that looks like and in the future. Um, but maybe first how how did you guys come up with the name doormat like what inspired that and and what part of that. You know you said your your roles kind of se oh but you wear a lot of hats were you part of like the the brainstorm team behind doormat as well. Yeah.

19:50.62
Joel
But I was not so the name doormat was was put together and thought of before I came into the fold and I could certainly credit my two co-founders for being the ones that came up with that. So I Know what they did is is had a number of different. Um, name options that they were thinking through did a bunch of voting with friends and family to to figure out the one that felt the best and in terms of fit um like in actually describing the business but also being Simple. So. Yeah, that I was not a part of um, you know, funnily enough we get pushed on our name. A lot of the times there is a bit of ah, a dual meaning to it where you could take it to mean that it's welcoming you to your new home or you could take the negative connotation about you know, being walked all over like a doormat. Ah. We've actually found that conversation to be beneficial. Um, because so many people talk about our name and you know they might say that they don't like it and they think that we should change it? Um, but I would say I would almost guarantee that those people remember the name and they won't forget the name. So um. You know we've we've been pushed on it. Ah I had the chat with my cofounders about it when I was brought on into the business about kind of why it was chosen. Um, but I think as time passes we're becoming increasingly committed to it and feel good about it.

21:21.89
mike_flywheel
I Love it. It's an interesting take which is if people are talking about you in your startup. That's that's a good thing. Um, and you know which did you mean and you know what it doesn't matter. It's a very simple easy to remember name which is which is cool. Um, well let's let's talk about the industry. Um.

21:26.14
Joel
Exactly.

21:33.85
Joel
Totally.

21:39.59
mike_flywheel
Obviously people have an understanding of buying and selling a home. Maybe they've gone through it themselves or know someone else that has or if they haven't um, they understand that there's some element of a transaction but let's talk about what the industry looks like today. What traditionally do people do. Um, is there any innovation in this space. Beyond what you're doing and then we'll talk a little bit about where and how you see yourselves as differentiators in this. So.

22:05.89
Joel
For sure. Yeah, so traditionally and and how it operates you know outside of us today is these services are provided by small regional law firms for the most part um up until you know a little bit into the ah. Pandemic you were required to sign your property closing documents in person so that necessitated the delivery of these services to be from companies that lived or or worked within the area that they're serving. Um, so your market is mainly made up of like. These law firms that might service like North Toronto or Thunder Bay or Peterborough but it was almost impossible for and well quite impossible for any law firm to service across the province unless they had a bunch of different satellite offices to make it work. Um a massive change that came. Um, with with the pandemic was remote document signing and that being allowed by the regulator regulators in the space so that actually opened the door for us to to get into this business that was typically hard to um. Create a large market size because you had to be regionally focused and all of a sudden it expanded the market to be all of Ontario because the way that the regulators operate is is provincially um so that was ah a massive change. But.

23:39.26
Joel
It still persists now that the market is dominated by um, regional law firms that don't put their clients through any sort of technology to bring transparency to to the experience. Um, a lot of the time the clients are just left in the dark wondering. Stage of the the property closing they're at um, you know, not really sure what they're going to be paying and then when they get the bill at the end of the day. It's It's different than what they felt they discussed at the at the start. Um and just not a lot of kind of like client focused mentality in the mix there. So. Um, I'd say in a way the the service delivery almost became commoditized and so there wasn't really a lot of effort to deliver a premium experience ah or not it just kind of averaged out in the middle. But really that that piece about remote document signing. Changed the game and allowed for technology to come into into the mix and start to improve the experience.

24:42.83
mike_flywheel
Yeah, it's interesting that catalyst really was important to the business offering that you've got because you could think of this all day but you had a regulatory body that just wouldn't allow a digital approach Now it sounds like you're jumping on the back of a digital approach in an industry. That's.

24:59.87
Joel
I.

25:01.39
mike_flywheel
Very fragmented and very traditional in nature in trying to trailblaze a path faster than others. Um, you don't have to name them but is this concept pretty unique at least in Canada maybe Canada versus the Us. Um, it sounds like you're operating in Ontario I assume you intend to at least lock down Canada but talk to us about the regional plays here and how that plays into your business model. So.

25:26.11
Joel
Yeah, for sure. So yeah, right now we are operating in Ontario and the plan is to expand across the country so you know our our expansion plan would just basically be based on population size which will roughly translate to the number of of. Ah, property transactions that you'll see in each province. Um, and the main reason for that is just we you have to have lawyers participating in each transaction. That's a required part of it and then ah lawyers are are regulated professionally in a provincial provincially. Um, so right now we're really focused in Ontario represents kind of pretty much half of the business in Canada. Um, so it makes the most sense to just get that right? and then start to expand to other provinces within the country. Um, there's a lot of similarities across across the board. Ah. The biggest exception would be Quebec um, but there is still still a requirement and a business opportunity there. We actually don't see ourselves expanding into the us. Um, it's just such a different market there. Um, and what you have in the states is you have Attorney States and non-terney states and our whole business model is built around the requirement of a lawyer in the transaction. So stepping outside of that would just be a whole a whole different world I guess you can say never say never but that's certainly not within our plans and then when you talk about competition.

26:59.61
Joel
There's a couple other digital players in the mix but they do it. We all do it differently I'd say there's like 2 notable digital competitors one is run by a law firm. Ah, and so you know. I think there's some limitations that come along with that and then another is running their business and growing their business in a more similar way to us. Um, but their service delivery is different so one of the things that's incredibly important to us is to have the lawyers that serve our clients. Actually working for doormat so that we're not just a middleman that kind of acquires clients and then passes those clients on to a lawyer to be servicing the deal on the backend while our technology plays the middle. Um, you know we believe that. Technology can drastically improve the whole experience. But that's not it. there has to be um there has to be I'd say boundaries and guidelines created in terms of that client support that we want to play a role in so you know. Long story short. We want to own the end to end transaction. We don't want to just be a part of it and so that is a big differentiating factor between us and and our more digital competitors in the space.

28:19.91
mike_flywheel
Got it? Well maybe let's talk about that piece then so how does doormat actually work and where in that um in that transaction or journey are things different like where do you? you know. Focus It sounds like there's this element of tech meets actual lawyers that are part of the doormat team and it sounds like you're innovating parts of the experience parts of the costing parts of the transparency. But let's walk it through So if I am if I'm. Buying a house and you're selling a house. How does this work for us.

28:56.23
Joel
Yeah, um, so first of all and I'll say that this is what I'll speak to is Aunt in Ontario. It's often quite comparable across other provinces. But I'll say that I'll specifically speak to Ontario. So if I'm buying a house from you. Both of us will need to to have legal representation. So you'll have to solicit your own lawyer I'll have to solicit my own lawyer. Um and will engage those folks and those folks will connect together on our behalfs so you and I as the purchaser and seller don't actually interact with each other It's the lawyers that take over that interaction. And they facilitate the the transfer of ownership from the buyer to the seller. Um, so historically what would happen in that scenario is you know let's say that that you're the one who's reaching out to your lawyer you would reach out they would do basically a. Ah, kyc with you collect all the information that they need over a phone or email or something like that. Um and then email or call you for additional items that they'll need over time and that's about it that brings you to closing day. You have no idea what's happening. A lot of the time. The asks are really last-minute and vague. Um a lot of lawyer speak and and legal jargon that's used and you're kind of left feeling like you know this is one of the biggest transactions in my life and I have no idea what's happening I don't know what I just paid for. Um.

30:25.37
Joel
You know I don't even feel like I have a record of anything that happened on this fortunately, you would get a nice closing package at the end but that's about the only only record that you would have um on the flip side what we do at doormat is as soon as you um. And actually sorry I should say the 1 other piece to that is is it is law clerks that end up doing the large majority of the work on ah on a residential real estate transaction. So in terms of the legal expertise supplied. There is some but you know a lawyer doesn't have to get too involved. A transaction. It is very much more of a project management exercise which is really what opens up the door for us to get involved. Um because you know technology it's harder to replicate ah legal expertise for that. Um, much. Easier or much more possible to take project management work and bring that into a technology that can make things more efficient. So from our side rate off the bat the clients get once we receive the purchase agreement they get invited into their transaction. And answer a whole series of questions that are responsive based on on each answer that they've given before so we're able to go into pretty significant detail to collect the information that we need ahead of time and then once they complete that onboarding and and setup.

31:49.59
Joel
They go directly into their dashboard where they get access to understanding the step by to step process that we'll go through and they're able to track that live as we progress through anything that we need from them. We surface up through the application and we explain to them why we need it. What it is where they can get it type of thing. Um, you know any ask that we have of them is actually completed within our application and all communication flows there as well. So um, with our application. They're able to have everything completed and accessible in 1 central spot. Um, and they're able to track the progress that we're making on the other side to feel that confidence that the work is being done that needs to get done. Um, and then what.

32:38.80
mike_flywheel
So sort of like I'm imagining. You know when you order a pizza and it shows that you know your pizza is now being made your pizza is now in the oven your pizza's now ready your pizza's now for delivery. But for the home transaction. So there's the piece that allows you to follow it along the simplification of.

32:56.80
Joel
Bang on.

32:56.80
mike_flywheel
All your messaging paperwork inputs are all in 1 spot. Not one phone call a text a few emails drop something off so centralized and streamlined in that way as well.

33:07.60
Joel
Totally yeah, the Domino's tracker that's exactly what we think about and and that's how simple we want to make it like it doesn't have to be more complicated. You know you? if if people wanted more detail. We'd be happy to give it to them. Um, and to speak in in the terminology. Ah that is that is often used in the space. But really, you know people just want to understand what's happening they want to understand like where we're at in that process in our process. Um. And just have clarity on like the documents that they're seeing or why we're asking for something and that's what we serve up through our application. A lot is you know, rather than like asking a client for their property insurance binder and just giving no context at all. We tell them what a property insurance binder is we proactively address the frequently asked questions that a client might have so that they're not left you know feeling stupid or questioning what what next step they need to take so you know from our end it makes our lives easier because we're not getting those questions. It's all served up quite clearly within the application. Um, but I think we're also especially kind of like in the ah, the millennial and gen z generations you know oftentimes you're seeing folks that are are working a lot have extremely busy lives.

34:35.16
Joel
They don't really want to be picking up the phone and calling with every question that they have they want to self-serve and so um, we allow them to self-serve and not have to feel stupid about asking a question that that maybe they wouldn't want to ask? Um, but we are fully available. So we're available via phone email text or chat. Um, we just don't have many people take too much advantage of that because everything is quite clearly explained and laid out within our app exactly.

35:04.48
mike_flywheel
So yeah, so it can be as hands oners hands off as you want now this matching of the lawyers. You said each party sort of seeks out their own representation. How does that work through doormat is it the same lawyer or you automatically get 1 side of the equation. 1 person's doing all buy 1 person's doing all sale. Um. And and it's all done to the platform or how does that piece work and.

35:24.63
Joel
Yeah, good question so we actually um, the whole thing is not done through the platform. So we say we're representing the buyer and everything from the buyer's perspective is done through doormat and they will be able to see that represented visually in.

35:29.41
mike_flywheel
Okay, okay.

35:42.20
Joel
Ah, in their dashboard. Um, we are interacting with the other side to facilitate. You know the necessary activities that need to happen to to transfer property ownership and much of that falls outside of the application. So. A big part of the the lawyer's job is just coordinating with the third parties involved so mortgage provider real estate agent Seller's lawyer um and there's a lot of back and forth work that happens there. So another big part of our business It's not visible from the client's perspective is continuing to continuing to build out our own internal technologies that improve our efficiency in terms of how we operate um because it is like I mean the the simplest way to describe. Um. What we do is ah a project management exercise with a lot of moving parts and you know technology is perfect to come in and simplify that and and make it more clear. What needs to be done next. So um, you know there is the client facing component of what we do, but a lot of. What we're focusing our attention on is what builds we can do internally to to make sure we're operating more efficiently which ultimately brings a lower play or a lower price to our clients.

37:06.46
mike_flywheel
I Guess what's cool here is right now you've got a B Two C product that theoretically could be white labeled into a B Two B product as well. Once you've mastered it to help other lawyers if you wanted to or you could disrupt.

37:21.20
Joel
Yeah, yeah.

37:22.72
mike_flywheel
Ah, but you could help them service their clients in a more tech forward way streamlined process. It might manage more challenges on the margin side because it sounds like you have a fixed pricing model and we'll get to that in a second but it does sound like the cool part about this is you're building tech.

37:36.48
Joel
Um.

37:40.74
mike_flywheel
Supports the workflows of lawyers that you can go do to disrupt the entire space or if you really wanted to you could white label it and resell this even to lawyers who wish to modernize how they're approaching their client base. Okay.

37:42.53
Joel
Oh.

37:54.70
Joel
Hundred percent yeah and I mean we've gotten pushed like as we've talked to investors and stuff on why we wouldn't be creating a b to b product rather than a b to c product. Um and it really just goes back to owning that entire client experience and how important we believe that is um. So you know we think that technology could improve the service that a lot of lawyers deliver. Um, but it's still going to hit a cap in terms of how good that that service delivery can be so we're not just building technology. We're building an experience. Um. And we wouldn't be able to do that with the b two b software but you know you're right? It's nice to know that that that option is out there. Um, totally yeah.

38:34.42
mike_flywheel
Yeah, it's cool because that optionality doesn't exist in every business. Um, and I think either way it's like yeah you could go b 2 b but everyone's saying no, we'll just use Docuign. We don't mean if you disrupt well then if you wanted to resell it as software. You've got you know. Ah, first party example of why and you've got the proof points of why without having to you know, do it Naysa um, let's talk about the pricing. So how how does the pricing work.

38:59.17
Joel
Hundred percent

39:04.64
mike_flywheel
If I'm coming to to doormat is it based on the type of transaction the size of the house it. It was always the same standard fee. How does that work. Thanks.

39:13.74
Joel
Yeah, so for us. Um, we have 1 standard fee across the board. So um, we support purchases, sales and refinances and for each one of those are our prices Nine Seventy Nine plus tax. Um, which is quite competitive in the space and then there does start to become some modularity to that pricing. You know if you've got multiple mortgages involved in ah in a purchase. Um, that does you know add add some extra cost. To it. But we try to keep it as simple as possible whether you're buying ah you know a $200000 home or a one point five million dollars home the price that we charge is nine seventy nine because our costs don't change in that scenario. Um the one the one I'd say the most variable thing in the mix.

39:58.70
mike_flywheel

40:07.57
Joel
Is what's called disbursements and disbursements are essentially the costs that a lawyer incurs in order to facilitate the property closing. So like when you're doing title search. Um, there are costs that are are incurred. In order to be able to do that and those costs are put back onto the client so you've got your fee that you know we as a business earn and then there's just the other costs that we incur in order to do our job. Um. What ends up happening in the space though is is there is a lot of variability in pricing. Um, and that's 1 place where we really are trying to come in and and just be ultra clear about what we're charging and if anything does come up along the way because it can um things may come up. We tell our clients immediately and make sure that they're well aware of it. Rather than waiting until the very end and and having this surprise bill. Um, and we found that that approach has worked incredibly well so far because people are reasonable. You know they they know that if work extra work has to be done or more work has to be done. That it makes sense that there's some sort of of charge to to accommodate for that. But what they don't like is surprises at the end. Um, and so that's where the human element comes into it and that's where that like experience piece that we care so much about um, comes into play as well.

41:34.29
mike_flywheel
That makes makes total sense and and I I mean like you said you've tried to create as much modularity to it as possible but you can't predict every thing that comes up. Maybe you will eventually and that's that's what you're building but but for now so you've been working on this for just over a year.

41:42.90
Joel
Are. Totally.

41:53.13
mike_flywheel
Um, it sounds like you had some good traction where are you sort of at and in terms of this like how long has it been You've been working on it for over a year, but that doesn't mean it's been live so how long has it been live for. Um, you know what's sort of the the next frontier look like for you I mean we're on the cusp of. 2024 by the time this gets released to be just before 2024 so what are your 2024 plans and what have you gotten done so far at Doormat. So.

42:20.43
Joel
Yeah, so we we launched officially in March of of this year so March Twenty Twenty three and that's when we came to market with our first product which was our ability to service purchases purchase transactions. Um. And then just shortly after launching we kicked off our efforts to to raise money so we closed our preseed round in may of of this year and so this year being a preseed company. It's been basically just getting our feet wet and understanding. What we need to build and and what direction we need to to take this company as we kind of gear up for our seed round. Um, so we weren't overly focused on growth this year but we did service a ah solid number of of transactions throughout the year probably more than we would have expected but we really didn't test. Waters in terms of of how we could go about acquiring clients. Um, we really focused on you know, taking this technology that our team built and applying it to the clients that we were serving and making sure that we actually had something that worked because there's a lot of assumptions that are made in a product build. And then once it it actually gets into real application. It doesn't quite pan out as you expected it to so with us raising money. We had the luxury of not just forcing growth into something that you know wasn't going to work. Um, and I think fortunately like we've.

43:52.13
Joel
Build something that works and you know there was pretty strong reception to it right away but we definitely had to make tweaks throughout the year and and we've changed our approach and in a lot of ways. Um, and so this year has really been about just kind of like honing the product honing our service delivery really figuring out what our values are as a company. And making sure that we're ready for the next step into growth. Um, and so that's what we're about to do heading into 2024 so we've got our our foundational product built right now and that's both like a client-facing product and a internal. Facing product that powers that client facing view. Um, and we feel really good about that and have some ah really solid roadmap built out of of where we want to take it and then 2024 is is about growth so we're expecting you know we we think we'll see ourselves doing another raise in twenty twenty five. And so to um to get to a place where we feel good. Um about our position for that raise we need to be focusing on growth next year and and that's what we'll be you know placing a lot of our time and attention and of course always product. They're always always building a product to. Um, service that growth and and make sure that we're delivering an amazing client experience.

45:12.70
mike_flywheel
And I like how you kind of walked through this element where like your product's really important at first so you got to get some people using it but doesn't have to be fully baked use that time to get it to a more perfect state and then instead of just like and I think this is brilliant. Some people just focus on just like a feature.

45:31.40
Joel
Yeah.

45:31.88
mike_flywheel
Fiesta and they just like add features and features and features but to your point like you you need to almost like break it a little bit first and so at some point you got to be like okay features can keep coming but maybe on a slower path. We need to equally invest in acquisition and growth and I think you said earlier in the show. There's a real need to go focus on sustainable revenue growth and financial capability now more than ever. Um, especially if you're going to go look to raise funding. You can't just talk product features aspirational email signups like you got to show.

46:02.78
Joel
Totally yeah.

46:10.25
mike_flywheel
Impact. So It's cool to see that you're like deliberately making the pivot into that of you've service customers. You've built product. You've refined product Now, you're gonna go make some bigger waves on individuals to create that revenue. Um flywheel. To to then go unlock the next wave of growth which will get you more features more devs but you need to go demonstrate. It? okay.

46:27.32
Joel
And exactly and you you you know you don't want to like we're not setting out for like 20 x growth like we're we're setting out for much more reasonable measured growth that will allow us to continue to deliver an incredible experience that people are going to speak. You know, fondly of as they tell their friends and family versus maybe going like absolutely ham on growth and maybe we do hit that that 20 times Mark but we break everything along the way piss off a ton of people. Um, and don't position ourselves. Well for for continued growth in the future. So like you know if you said would you rather 20 times growth next year or 5 times I'd probably say 5 times for that very reason because like we care deeply about the experience that we're delivering in the product that we're building and 20 times growth doesn't match up with that. Um, we're not all about growth. We're about kind of like that sustainable build and responsibly building this company. So.

47:30.69
mike_flywheel
I like that I like the awareness around what you want to go do and deliberateness of it. Not just numbers for the sake of it now along this journey. Um, what's sort of been like the hardest thing or most challenging thing and maybe it's doormat. Maybe it's your own pivots from like Rbc.

47:34.97
Joel
Totally.

47:47.86
mike_flywheel
Um, you know through a startup into another startup maybe still being in startups like what's sort of like ah a challenge or an interesting moment that sort of stood out for you for the last few years here in your entrepreneurship journey. So.

48:00.93
Joel
I'd say ah a big one for me was deciding to go from rise to doormat. Um, you know by a lot of measures. It felt that like my time with rise was really successful but from a personal finances measure. It wasn't ah and and that's just for my own my own personal kind of like income throughout the time so deciding to take the leap into another brand new startup was incredibly difficult and then like. Going back to the start of our conversation about like what were the conversations you need to have before like making the leap initially like I had to have a lot of conversations with my wife you know making the leap from one startup to another. So I think that that that was like incredibly difficult. Um. Fortunate to have like a lot of support from from my wife and that and then also my cofounders that I was going into this with with doormat were very open to kind of talking it all through and and open to like any concerns that I was bringing to the table. So I would say that you know. Personally that was so difficult. Um, but I'm glad that I did it because a lot of the lessons I learned from the first the first business I've been able to apply here and and maybe you know take a more even keel approach ah than than what I was doing before. Um.

49:31.69
Joel
And then just tactically in doormat I mean jumping into a space that I personally have no experience in um, has been really difficult. Ah so and not just you know jumping into a space that I don't have experience in but 1 that's highly regulated. Um. Has been super challenging. But that's also been part of the reason why something like doormat doesn't already exist. It's not an easy space to break into so there is a lot of upfront work to be able to actually run this business legitimately. Um, and in line with the expectations of regulators. So it was a lot of hard work. Before we even got to launch. Um, but well worth it because you know again, it's it's not easy for other folks to get into and and now we're into it and and we feel like we can really run with it.

50:18.48
mike_flywheel
So let's talk about the worth it. What's sort of been the you know highlights so far of this journey and it can be doormat and the breaking through and the the well worth it and and there or maybe you're well worth it was. Making that leap when you did into your first startup rise from Rbc and you know, challenging yourself to learn and grow in this way. But what's sort of like the highlight for you.

50:41.13
Joel
yeah yeah I mean jumping it's crazy to think back on like my own personal experience so far with this and like going from the day where I left Rbc to jump into the entrepreneurial world like full time to where I'm at right now I'm just completely different. Um, person in terms of like what I can bring to the table and I think one of the things that is tough and no matter what job you do or what company you work at is you naturally get labeled with that. Um, and so it's easy to get labeled as like a bank person working at a bank. And so it feels good to me to you know, be doing pretty well working for a company that ah that I'm ah one of the founders of um so I think that's been incredibly rewarding and like you know that just makes each great thing that happens with doormat that much more rewarding. So. You know, not that raising money is the ultimate goal but it was a really nice feeling when we were able to close that first round. Um, just after everything that I had personally been through and then each win that we have as a company is like it just presents that moment to to reflect back on on the journey to even even get here. And I think that's so important in entrepreneurship is like you have to celebrate each little thing because the highs are high but the lows are extremely low. Um, and so you can't get bogged down with those. Um, yeah.

52:12.24
mike_flywheel
That's good advice and I think as you demonstrated there. It's about savoring those learning moments because you can either apply them to the next startup you can apply them if you go back to work at a big company but they're these like actual tangible skills that I think you highlighted that you're building along the way. And you need to be aware of them. Otherwise it's just like you you blow past it all and you don't really appreciate everything you've done until you are done which sometimes it's too late So in the moment enjoying and reflecting on those things now if people want to find out more about Doormat. Um.

52:36.76
Joel
Totally.

52:48.40
mike_flywheel
We'll link everything in the description but where should they go and the other question I really like to ask because sometimes it's connected to this is is there anything in the next while ahead it could be the next three months six months twelve months that if there's someone listening they could be anyone. Maybe it's like just the everyday person. Maybe it's someone that could form an introduction. But. Is there anything specifically you and the doormat team are looking for help on other than hey if you're interested to use us. We'll get to that and where they can go but is there anything else. You would add to that for people that are listening in that could maybe help lean in and support your journey and your growth. So.

53:24.54
Joel
For sure I mean so the best place to go for any further information is doormat dots. Yeah, um, we try to make everything cleanly available and ah and simple via our website and then in terms of the ask of like. Beyond folks choosing us when they're buying or selling a property is is anyone who anyone else who is in the real estate space or prop tech space. Whether you're a real estate agent a mortgage broker or a prop tech company. Um that plays in that home buyyer's journey. We'd be really interested in talking. So. You know there's certainly an organic acquisition angle for us to get clients but a big part of our business is is already through partnerships with folks like real estate agents and mortgage brokers. Um, and we're going to continue to build out those partnerships into the new year so anyone in that space that would be interested in in learning more about doormat can definitely reach out to me directly and and I would love to chat with them.

54:23.35
mike_flywheel
Sounds good and we'll make sure to link all that again, if you're looking to help obviously anybody that can collaborate I love that you're looking at this like collaboration in the real estate prop tech space. Um. There's so many people doing so many cool things and if you just try to do it alone. It's not quite as as savory at the end and there's going to be you know, unknown collaborations along the way. So I love that that shout out alongside anybody looking to obviously buy or sell property and and you know there's a lot of value in this for them. It's it's. Fully digital experience. It's backed by and supported by lawyers as a component of the transaction. It's extreme transparency. Um, it feels like the ultimate win for people with busy lives that just want to make real estate a lot simpler and it sounds like you guys are doing amazing work. And at its core is backed around how you're doing it compliantly with lawyers built in so I love it Joel thanks for for joining us on the pitch please podcast today any closing words on your side before we wrap up today.

55:16.85
Joel
Totally.

55:26.44
Joel
That's it. That's all I appreciate the time Mike and appreciate everyone that took the time to listen.

55:29.62
mike_flywheel
I Love it. Thanks everybody for tuning in again to the pitch please podcast catch you on the next episode.